Illicit Liaisons: Book Chat with Laura Solar from Laura Rae Says

This week, we chat with Laura Solar, a booktuber who covers news and drama from the book community on her channel, Laura Rae Says. We discuss book piracy, bookish drama, and questionable editors.

Laura Solar is a book lover and the host of a YouTube channel that focuses on topics related to the book community. Making videos for over three years featuring reviews, interviews, and all things involving books, she's recently started making videos to expose the dark side of the book world. Uncovering scams and badly behaving companies and authors has become a passion project for Laura, as she continues to deliver in-depth and entertaining book world coverage!

Laura's YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@lauraraesays

Laura's Playlist of multi-video topics (e.g. Christina Kaye) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLt0A7GSlDSSWkIHFaoU7QgKkbZuyzqBsE

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lauraraesays/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lauraraesays

CURRENTLY READING & RECOMMENDATIONS

The River is Waiting by Wally Lamb https://amzn.to/4w2485n

Gate to Kagoshima by Poppy Kuroki https://amzn.to/44pHd87

Fantastical Foes from Tender & Tempting Tales https://amzn.to/4hhDPU6

Shadow of Betrayal by Eva LeClerc https://amzn.to/4vukAKM

Contact Unknown by T.A. Leederman https://amzn.to/4f1MJUw

Reel by Kennedy Ryan https://amzn.to/4plW4dk

Stolen Death by J.D. Robb https://amzn.to/3Ty7WwK

Our Perfect Storm by Carly Fortune https://amzn.to/4vsBRUm

TENDER & TEMPTING TALES

Tender and Tempting Tales Substack: Subscribe and get a FREE story! https://tenderandtemptingtales.substack.com/

Tender and Tempting Tales on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tendertemptingtales/

Tender and Tempting Tales ARC Team: https://booksprout.co/reviewer/team/56782/tender-and-tempting-tales

Calls for Submissions: https://tenderandtemptingtales.substack.com/p/write-for-tender-and-tempting-tales

ILLICIT LIAISONS PRODUCED & HOSTED BY

Tara Leederman Substack: https://taleederman.substack.com/

Jenna Harte: https://jennaharte.com/

Outline and Show Notes: T.A. Leederman
Editing: Jenna Harte

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello, romance readers. Welcome to Illicit Liaisons with Tender and Tempting Tales, where each week we talk about the good, the bad, and the naughty of romance fiction. I am Jenna Hart. I'm a romance author, the Southern Heat Contemporary Romance series and the Sexy Valentine Mystery Series, as well as the managing editor of Tender and Tempting Tales, a steamy romance anthology for readers who like quickies.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Hi, I'm Tara Lederman, social media manager here at Tender and Tempting Tales, and Laura Maven and main fiction writer for Starship Valkyrie, a science fiction, game, and story universe. I write science fiction stories, including romance, and you can often find me in our anthologies and on Substack.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

And today we're so excited to have as our guest host Laura Soler of Laura Ray Says. Laura is a book lover and the host of a YouTube channel that focuses on topics related to the book community. She's been making videos for over three years featuring reviews, interviews, and all things involving books, and recently started making videos to expose the dark side of the book world, of which there seems to be a lot lady, lately, right? Authors behaving badly. Uncovering scams and badly behaving companies and authors has become a passion for Laura as she continues to deliver in-depth and entertaining book world coverage. And we will have Laura's YouTube and other contact info for you all to check out. You're gonna want to watch it. Absolutely. Thank you so much for being with us, Laura. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. It's so nice to chat with you guys. Well, we love talking all things bookish, so we're happy to talk with it with you. And we always start our show with some sort of bookish drama or hot take or something like that. And because that's sort of what you specialize in, we thought maybe you could have the topic for this week. And it's my understanding that you came back with pirating sites and looking into Ocean of PDF. Um, what have you learned? What are your thoughts and what can you share with us?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

So I feel like this recently in the past week or so kind of blew up on threads and Instagram. I have been moving the past week. So I've sort of been just all of this in the background. So when I kind of got settled in, I actually sat down, looked at my phone, I was like, I can't believe all this has happened. So, anyone you know listening that doesn't know, it's a pirating website, ocean of PDF, and it has been extremely popular and suddenly it's been taken down, and authors are finding their books on it that didn't know they were there. And there has just been a lot of differencing, difference of opinions that I did not really expect to see, which has been which is very interesting to me that there are so many people who are, I don't want to say pro-pirating, but that are calling other folks out for their privilege for not wanting their books pirated. It's just been a little strange to me.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yeah, this conversation I think happened also in 2018, the last time Ocean of PDF was taken down, and they had to come back up with a.NET. And I remember when I saw you say this, I was like, wait a minute, wasn't that a thing years ago? And I can't like it's interesting that this conversation's coming back around again because last time there was this really big dust up with authors talking about, you know, how it wasn't classists that asked that they asked if people pay them for their labor. And a lot of people were like, Oh, you're being classes, you're not, you know, giving access to people to for your books. And a lot of authors were like, I, you know, I post it everywhere. I, you know, it's on KU. I do everything I can to make it, you know, I make it affordable. I put it up on 99 cent deals and put it in book exchanges. There's so many ways you can get it. You can get an ARC, and but you still want to pirate it. And it's so interesting to me that the same conversation's being had seemingly again about this this this debate where authors have to fight to be paid for their labor, and they're already not being paid enough for their labor. I mean, frankly, you know, usually when you get a book from 99 cents, you are not paying that author for the labor that went into that book.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Exactly. And it just the the fact that the I I can see the nuances when certain people bring it around to like access to educational materials in other countries, and but but that's not what is really being talked about. Like, that's not what these people are upset that they can no longer pirate. You know, I didn't know this site existed. I was not around the book internet like world whenever this came up the first time, so I I didn't um know about it back then, but I was just taking a look at it and like the number of textbooks very minimal. It it is contemporary fiction, so much of that, and just knowing what I know from just being in community with like indie authors is just like this is heartbreaking because a lot of indie authors don't they they're not doing this to become rich. They do this because they love it, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get something back for that. They're still like putting I I don't even know why I I am like explaining it in this much detail. I just can't understand why people would think that authors don't deserve to be paid for their their work.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yeah, it's it's lovely to see someone who's like not an author say that. So it's great.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Yeah, I appreciate it because the internet has significantly devalued the value of written the written word. I remember freelance authors being able or writers to do well, and then all of a sudden you get five bucks for a 500-word article, right? Like the internet has done that and it has done it to books. Why do people feel like they should get something for free that has not been paid for anywhere in the pipeline? For example, if I'm hungry, I can go to my food pantry. Okay, they either had a grant and bought the food, the food was donated by somebody who bought the food. Like somewhere, somebody got paid, right? The the food manufacturer got paid, unless maybe they donated it, right? But these sites, the books are not donated by the author. Nowhere in the pipeline was the author paid for the book, likely, right? Um, and why is that okay? Now you go to the website and they do this fancy job of saying some people in some countries don't have access to this or to a library, but they have not limited the access to these books to those countries or to places that don't have a library, right? Everybody has access to these books. An independent author can spend thousand to five thousand dollars to create a book. This is the hours they've put into writing it, editing it, paying an editor to edit it, getting a cover design, all of it. The ads, what all the things you have to do, and now they have to give that away for free. That makes no sense to me. And I'm I don't know, the internet's gonna come after me now. Laura, please, you're gonna have to protect me. But but the the thing is, why I I mean, where else do we hear? It seems to be only books, and I want people to read. I understand how important it is, but yeah, when you think of what goes into it, it's very, very difficult uh for me to think why should they not get paid for doing what they did? Even the library pays for books, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

I think where this I think where this equity conversation comes from originally is from textbooks. The reason why I was familiar with this from the last time it came up is because in 2018 I was teaching English at UC Irvine, and my students use some PDF websites to get a hold of textbooks. And the reason for that was that UC Irvine had a stranglehold, like many UCs and like many colleges, on the price of the textbooks. So you would have to go to the textbook store and you have to buy them, and they were extremely expensive. You know, the the textbook racket is quite lucrative, and students were getting just squeezed. And so they were using PDF websites, sharing PDFs around, trying to make this more accessible. And I understood their arguments about equity at the time for textbooks and even books that were fiction that you might read in the English department that they would find via PDF, especially if we were asking them to get specific addiction editions like the Oxford or like the penguin annotated one, which were still expensive versions, you know. And I understood their their arguments about equity at the time. I think that that has filtered into the conversation about fiction, this sort of like right to get things. And I think it is filtered away from it's too expensive over here to people need things to read, it's a human right, people need to be entertained, and like people I think read so much that it can be quite a cost, you know? And there is a reduction of of books to content, and a lot of people get content, other kinds of content online for free. And I think that that people are thinking in terms of of books as content, and there should be a way for them to get it for free. And I think that as as you said, Jenna, that's an effect of the internet of reducing books to a form of content that is consumed and that should be paid for in other people.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

You can get it free. You can get onto the library for free, even if you don't live near a library, you can access a library through the internet and get a book, and that book has been paid for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

I think if you were already using Oceanopedia for your textbooks, it's easy to be sort of like, oh, there's a romance novel here and grab it, you know. And it then becomes easy. It's just a dumpster fire. Like, who does that?

SPEAKER_02 9:38

But you know what the reality is in terms of dealing with pirating fight uh websites, is it's very difficult. It's like whack-a-mole. You pull your book down from one, it pops up on another. I I've sort of given up, you know. Like I said, this site has four of my books, two of them are traditionally published. That's heartbreaking. I'll probably reach out to my publisher. What's funny is it's a three-book series and only two of the books are on there or have seven book series of. Jokes on them, then at least they can't read the whole series. But the my I understand it can be if you're an avid reader, I understand it can be expensive to get books. I got I got shelves of them, right? But the idea that you should be able to get it free just because, and and then nobody demands that of everything. I want art in my wall. The I should be able to go to the museum and you give me that piece of art.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

People steal art all the time. People steal art all the time. Like it is, it's disgusting how much people steal art. Put it on mugs, sell the mugs. Like, it's disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Gas is too expensive. I should be able to steal it. That's that's just what makes no sense to me. And I feel like reading some people's posts is just, I feel like a crazy person because I think that it is wrong to steal from authors. And like, I just can't wrap my head around thinking that I have a right to something just because I want it. And again, I have to separate this from the accessibility of textbooks and such in other countries and even here, because I don't have a solution for that. Like, there's just I don't know how they think authors make a lot.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Like, do they think it's just Grisham and Nora Roberts? Because the majority of the authors ha have a job. Exactly. And writing is their hobby. Very few authors make a living from their writing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

When you're an indie author, you're putting forth so much money before even getting your book available for sale. You're the one that's paying for the cover, the editing, everything. So you're already like in the hole. And even if your goal is just to break even, you're not going to get there when people are reading your book for free that you did not give them permission to do that. You know? And I hate this whole thing about I've been seeing, oh, well, if someone pirates your book, they weren't going to buy it anyways. Okay. Well, then they still don't get to read it though. The rationalizations are just wild.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

They shouldn't say that when they go to review it on goodweeds. I stole this book, I loved it.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Stole it and I love it. Five stars. I mean, you know, pyramid of needs stuff. If you steal a loaf of bread because you're starving, I'm not gonna judge you. That that's different from like when people talk to me about accessibility and equity and stuff. It's like, you know, when with food and shelter, I am much more sympathetic to that. I mean, I am a very I'm a progressive on these things. I do think that we should feed and clothe and house people and that we shouldn't be sort of like, well, you didn't pay for that loaf of bread, you should be punished and you should not get food when you need food. Like, no, feed the hungry, absolutely. But books are higher up in that that the tier of needs. And as a society, we do provide libraries for people to check out books from for free that you can, you know, get you can borrow books and and have them for free. Like that is provided for you, that's part of our social fabric. I don't understand why people are like, okay, I need to steal this book, that's the only way I can get books.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Yeah, or find a tiny library in your neighborhood, you know. That's people shove books in there all the time. Yeah, I just yeah, but the it's sort of the mindset around it that is most concerning. Books are gonna be stolen, but the that the the mindset of, well, they're only $3.99, what's the big deal, or whatever, right? Like, um, yeah, I just I don't get that.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Oh, well, this is why I do tell people don't price your books too low. People start to think that they're not worth anything.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

I feel like I'm just talking in circles because it's just the same stuff over. Um I just can't understand thinking that just because you want this thing that means you're entitled. There's lots of stuff I want, but I can't afford, so I don't get to have it. It's not different. Um, and and I don't I can understand that being able to afford all the books you want is yes, a privilege, but that doesn't mean you get to say, well, too bad, so sad, I'm still going to have this.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Thousand copies has been pirated. That's two grand at least, right? That they've taken from an author that could have used that money to put out a new book or to pay their rent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

I just want to like underscore something to listeners right now that Jenna is a as an author, Trad published Andy published author, and casually, when she heard about this, goes on the site and finds four of her books. Four of them. And like, and it's just sort of like, yeah, that happens, but like seriously, like think about that. Four of her books. Do you know how long it takes to write a book? Like it's it is truly heartbreaking. You're hearing this from authors right now, people. This is nuts. Like, you do not have a right to steal from us. Please do not.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Well, it come it brings into the, you know, Amazon just changed the the DRM thing where now we have the option where we can allow people to download so they can read across multiple uh outside of the Kindle app. And you're like, okay, that might be nice, but this is why you don't. Because if they download your book in PDF, all of a sudden they're selling it somewhere else or giving it away free somewhere else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Putting it up on motion of PDF. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Anywho.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

All right. We should move on to the next topic.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

I need a drink.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Go ahead, Jenna.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

So recently, Susannah Friesen talked about this guy. Well, it was this woman who shared a story about her and her husband and just thought it would be a great story idea. And this guy saw that video and thought, yeah. And so he fed that idea into chat and wrote a book and gave it to her that she could sell and did not at all. I don't know if you saw this. Yeah. Briefly. And and this happens so often when people are getting called out, is they miss the point. And he clearly missed the point about the joy of writing. You know, you could do it so fast, you can write a book in 15 minutes. Well, yeah, but that's not, you know, an author who writes likes to tell their story, right? He just totally didn't get that. And I mean, I just that was crazy. I don't know. What did you guys think?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

That's just it feels so violating, I feel, like talking to someone about something that is yours. Because if is it something that she had like it was her story with her husband or something, right? Almost personal.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

It was very intimate. It was like a personal thing uh about like it was, I think it was a time travel thing where like she he would go back in the past and like convince her to like love her, love him all over again. It was very personal to the two of them. So it had this extra layer of really being about the couple in question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah. I mean, that just feels like it would be so violating, especially uh there's two kind of parts to this too. So even if he had AI not involved at all, this is just this person doing that. Really kind of weird. Uh and now it's it's uh been fed into AI, and now it's just kind of out there, and now I feel like what's she's ever never gonna write this story now, and that opportunity's sort of taken away from her. And I guess she technically could still do it, but yeah, it's tainted almost.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah, she seemed really soured on the whole thing after we've done this, and I felt really bad for her because she's she wanted to be a writer, but she hadn't started doing it yet. So you have this person who's this sort of like budding, just thinking about being a writer, who kind of gets crushed really early on by something kind of gross that's just heartbreaking to watch. You know, it's like seeing one of my students get crushed really early on by hating an English class or something like that, and just like never flourishing as a writer.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Yeah, the and the other thing that was really interesting is you you know, he kept getting pushback, he kept making videos, and most of the pushback initially came from women, even famous authors were stepping in and like, we like to write, you know, and he's like, You could just do it so much faster with chat. And it wasn't until the woman's husband stepped up and said, This is this is wrong. And I mean, even the guy's girlfriend said when he told her about it, she's like, Don't do that, and he did it anyway. So that says something, I think, too, that he only apologized where the husband stepped in. Yeah, it was just really bizarre, and the I, you know, this idea, I mean, AI, you know, does a lot of things, right? It is nice to have tools and resources that make like I like having a can opener, I like having a microwave, like convenience is nice, right? But there's some things we do for the joy of doing it, even if it takes a long time, and writing is one of them. And you know, the the idea that he could not see that was just really telling. Like he really just saw a book as a commodity and not a labor of love.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

He saw it as content, yeah. We saw it as content because all over again. He also did this dude thing, which is like okay, he had all these, like, I like you said, all these women were pushing back on him. And he he like he did this thing that I see guys do, which is that like not all guys, but I've seen some guys do this, where like women will push back on them and they'll be like, you just don't understand my perspective. You you must be disagreeing with me because you don't understand. So let me explain to you my perspective again, and eventually you'll get it through your head what I'm trying to say, and you'll agree with me because I'm right. It couldn't possibly be that I am wrong. And then a dude will come in and will push back, and they'll be like, Oh, you're a real arbiter of reality. I'm sorry, I must have been wrong. And all the women will be like, that's exactly the thing that I just just said to you, and you acted like I just didn't understand you. And he even apologized to the dude on behalf of the girlfriend instead of to the girlfriend. I was it was crazy. It was like, I'm so sorry to you for affecting your life by making your girlfriend sad.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Oh my goodness. I I wish that that wasn't just such a common tale that I feel like I've you know heard before because it's not real unless another man says it. And yeah, the apology to to him because yeah, sorry, your life has been a little harder because your girlfriend's upset. Like, what the hell?

SPEAKER_01 20:14

I like that you said the word violated because that was the exactly the same word I use. I was like, why am I so offended by this? And it's like I feel like violated on behalf of her, like it feels so violent to have this happening.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

It took me a minute to wonder why does this feel so icky? But I and I think part of it was that it was a personal story, it was really sweet, you know. When she said, What would happen if you da-da-da? And he came back with this lovely response. We write books that have that, and here it is in real life. This wonderful romantic man who loves his wife, you know. And then this other guy sort of takes it and cheapens it, I guess. I don't know, but it was it was icky.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

It was icky, he really did cheapen it. I thought, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Yeah. What possesses someone to even do that is strange to me. Think about.

unknown 21:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yeah. He saw you like someone had said I would read that, I would read the F out of that, basically. And he was like, Yes, I'm gonna turn this into a piece of content that people can buy. And then after she said she didn't want it, he was like, Well, I think that this is this piece of content is really good and people would like to buy it, so I'm gonna put it up online. And everyone on the internet was like, No, you stole the idea, you put it through Chat GPT, no one wants this. Go go home. You're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

There was a part of me that would like to get a sneak peek at what chat wrote, just because I'm curious, you know, it's wrong. I know it's wrong. I should not, and you know, she wasn't gonna read it, but he really thought this was the bees' knees. Like he thought he had this book that she could just take and sell. You're welcome, right? But knowing how Chat and AI writes, I can only imagine that it's just not that great.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

I notice that people who are outside of the Artistic field are just impressed when chat comes back with the thing. Like just it just materializes and they're like, oh my God, I didn't have to have an artist make this. It exists and it exists for me. And that they they made this machine created for them that they're just in awe of the thing existing. And they don't have an eye for whether the thing is good or not. They're just like it exists.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah. And you know, there's some universe where that is really cool. Except for that in this universe, not only is it just destroying our planet as like a physical thing, but you know, that's not even talking about how it's actually stealing from human beings. Like this isn't a sci-fi movie where we're like, oh, cool, look, it you can just type in an idea and then it spits out this story. Like, if that is in a sci-fi movie, cool, neat. It doesn't need to be reality. And it shouldn't be because in reality, those things don't happen without someone suffering, without hurt being caused. And yeah, that's not what that's not what we're here for.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

It makes me think of going back to our pirating sites, you know, anthropic is paying a billion dollars for taking pirated books to train on. Why are these pirated sites not having to pay a billion dollars for stealing people's books?

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Usually because they can't find the person who's doing it.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Maybe that's it.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah, I was looking into it a little bit, and it's because a lot of them are like the the complainants would be uh American, and a lot of these are not based in, and it's also very uh collaborative almost people submitting these uh files. Yeah, yeah, kinda it's like there's not one person or one like entity responsible, it's like very much a group effort.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah, you share the crime around, it's harder to pin someone the pin the tail on the donkey.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah, I think people responding to AI or even like to PDF things where they can just get the thing, like it's like a replicator in Star Trek spitting out a slice of cheesecake for you. Like, oh my god, cheesecake! Like it's so amazing, especially if you existed in the pre-free cheesecake era. A slice of cheesecake just appearing for you is really exciting, right? But you're not really thinking about what's being ground up to create the cheesecake on the other end. Right, exactly. So, Laura, it's like really exciting to have you with us because you're a pretty regular voice in the background while I'm editing or doing press work. And I recently saw your Christina K video where she threatened you, which I thought was absolutely bananas, and I want to see how you were feeling about the whole thing and if there was anything new with the whole situation.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

I feel totally fine about it, honestly. I thought it was entertaining. You know, there's a moment you get something that seems a little scary in your email, and um, but knowing who it was from, reading the content of it, and I was just I I take a lot of time to really make sure what I say is what I want to say, and that you know, I I script it all out, I record it, and then I go through it and I watch it like three more times while I'm editing. And so I feel pretty confident when I say something that it is coming out correctly and I'm not gonna get myself into trouble because it's either clearly stated as an opinion, or it is backed up by proof, or it is stated that I don't know if this is 100% true. And so it uh it just made me laugh, honestly, because her of all people, she wants me to, she thinks I'm slandering her. Like I don't think I do that to anyone. However, if there were if I was to be in trouble for slandering someone, she's not the one because she doesn't, I don't need to make things up about her. She puts it all out there.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Yeah, like and for and for anybody who's listening who doesn't quite know, Christina Kay is an editor who does work with independent authors. Um, but and and Laura isn't the only one to have talked about this. Her clients are all over the internet fussing about poor quality, she's very sweet and nice up front. And we can hear somebody once recorded, I think you played this on one of yours had recorded a call where she's all sweet and nice. But the minute they're like, not sure, I can't pay now, there's sort of this turn in attitude. Um, she gets kind of mean, um, based on what the receipts are on the internet, show us from people who have worked with her. See now here, I'm gonna be careful. Um, and Laura has a series of videos that you know go through, and again, she shows receipts. Uh, people contact Laura even about, oh yeah, I had that too. So, you know, this is she's not just pulling something out there, but then she did receive a cease and desist from Christina. Um, we'll have a link to it. We'll have the whole series linked.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

She is she's one of those predatory editors who really piss me off on the internet, you know. Like Jenna and I are editors, like the way that Christina K treats indie authors really, really pisses me off. Um, like it's just not okay. I mean, we've actually had predatory editors come into our writing group at the library, and the fact that we had reserved the room, they used us as like a a captive audience to to basically like tell people, like, well, you're not serious about your writing unless you get an editor, unless you spend six hundred dollars on your like these are these are baby writers, these are people with nothing published. Like, they're just basically writing for novel in November, and you're in here predating upon them. I hate that attitude.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

And it drives me really like they're probably not gonna make six hundred dollars back on their book.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Oh, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

I mean, most authors are lucky if they make a hundred.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah, it's very like, oh, you're not serious about your work unless you take me as an editor.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

It's just done, it's um it's another one of those things that make me scratch my head because it's one thing to be having the small business, doing all this, it's the attitude and the way she seems to turn on people that makes absolutely no sense to me or not follow through. I think some of the complaints were that they didn't get their final, you know, she's pushing for final payment and then not delivering. Um and I that I always scratch my head around that. And I've heard having been in the freelance world for a long time, I've heard stories about people not following through and delivering. And I'm like, why would you do that? The other side is, you know, there are people who don't pay. So, you know, I mean, I've had that where I've delivered, I've always worked really hard to deliver what I have to deliver on time at the best of my ability, and it just makes no sense to me. Uh, and the way how hard she goes at it on on TikTok or whatever, all her special deals because she's to be evicted or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

And it's just one extreme to the other. She's either the most successful book editor in the world and she has won so many awards for her own books, but she she stepped back from writing because she wants to help you make your book a success. Meanwhile, she also has like three likes on her video and no comments, and she is gonna get evicted, but she only has one spot for it. Just make up your mind what angle you want to you want to take here. Do you want to act like you are just so good that you only have you know one spot, or do you want people's pity?

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Because yeah, it doesn't all become artist techniques. She's not delivering because she has too many clients, it's it's sort of hard to think about.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

I think that it's not, I think she does. I'm not gonna say what how good the quality is. Yeah, I think she does deliver, but it's just that she people ask questions, they get a little bit involved, she takes their money and she promises this money-back guarantee. But then anytime someone tries to take her up on it because they're not happy with what they got, they uh she says that they broke their their contract because of XYZ, something teeny tiny, stupid small. And that's where I think that comes from. I don't know that I've actually seen her like not completing work like a lot of people we see that just kind of brush off their every responsibility. I think that people realize they don't want her to continue work, like they don't want to continue working with her, and then she won't give them back the money that they paid for um services that she didn't ever complete, and she's like, Well, you're backing out, so I get to keep all your money, and maybe that's in her contract, but it's not right.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

I think she contracted with editors at one point too, didn't she? Because if somebody comes into your Word document and starts to edit, uh Word tracks that so people were getting their their edits back with somebody else's name on it. Yeah, but she wasn't even doing it. That was I'm just gonna subcontract, I think.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah, but she didn't tell them.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah, oh, fair. Yeah, no, I'll be pissed off about that too.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

And I feel I would need to like go back and look at it. I feel like there was an issue of non-payment with a contracted editor, but allegedly, because I can't swear to it, I would I talk about too many shady people. I forget them confused sometimes, but uh I do it.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

It feels like you had a video where some of them, or at least one of them, yeah, been saying, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Yeah. And I have I have talked to a couple of people who were former, I think uh actually employees, and she was just an absolute nightmare, as you may imagine.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Yeah, yeah. I I just don't understand that. It's not hard to say what you mean, mean what you say, do what you say you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Because you're an honest person. She has no no like she has no stable understanding of the truth that she hews close to. She'll like use any means she can to get your money out of you and will turn on you the moment you say you don't want to pay her. You know, those are all the red flags.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

We're uh pretty familiar with all the things that you've done. Uh and um you'll be doing some follow-up videos on some of the projects you've covered in the past. I'm just curious kind of what things you might be following or following up on now.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Well, I always keep an eye on our girl Christina because she is always up to something. And every time I think I'm done, there she is again. Someone sends me something new about her because it seems that a lot of people that watch my videos are just as fascinated by her entire persona as I am, and also keep an eye on her. Um always keeping an eye on Brit Andrews, seeing if she's ever gonna fulfill her Kickstarters.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

And the other one you said you're gonna do it, you should do it. Like $95,000. $95,000. I'll write a book for you in a week.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

She will. She will. Jenna can. She will.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

I believe it. I believe it. I mean, it's it's uh unreal and just the lack of caring about how much money she's taken from people is blows my mind. And the number of authors that are like, I can't even imagine having enough, you know, support in readership that they they gave me almost a hundred thousand dollars of their money to give them a book, and I can't even you can't even do that. It's crazy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

So those two always her mental health stuff on that is really wild. I mean, I I'm torn between feeling terrible for her and being so frustrated.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

It's really, it is really frustrating because I think that's the case with a lot of people I talk about is as soon as shit hits the fan. Sorry about your filter if you I'm swearing to, but okay, you can swear. You're never gonna be as bad as me. It's like it's like shit hits the fan and everyone's sick and everyone's dying. And that's not to say that those things don't happen. It's just that it it's it's hard to believe when it is constantly happening. There's a time when and it and then at the end of the day, that's still it sucks, but it's being an adult is you have to just keep up with what you are um your your responsibilities, you know. You have money from people. This came up with, and again, I'm going to probably make an update on the uh author, sorry, editor, enchanted author services. I don't know if you guys saw that one. Ashley was her name. And I actually had someone who's watched a lot of my videos and been a big supporter, left me a comment that was really angry with my take on her um mental health struggles on me saying that she needed to like her where where her family and friends, why are people not getting involved? And I get it, I totally do, and I understand that it's it's a not everybody has a supportive family friends, people to look out for them. But I I have to, I have to see the other side as well, where she's still actively taking money from people, not communicating, lying about work that's being done. And I think that those things can exist at the same time. You can be sympathetic to someone's issues, and you can also say, but you're not doing anything to help your own case. And I do, I have plenty of mental health issues in my family, in my own personal self. And so I get it, and I know that it's it's really, really hard when you don't have someone helping you and you're struggling, but you all you you have to then just stop and you have to be honest. And uh people are really nice and understanding, and I think we're just at a point where it's so taken advantage of people's kindness and just like empathy because they they they are good people, and so even if you are truly having such uh such intense mental health struggles, you are ending up having to be hospitalized multiple times. It's like really sad, and there's empathy, but then you need to stop doing what you're doing, and you need to give people back their money and be honest about it because they're not hiring you to um be your bank. Like they hired you for a service. And if you can't fulfill your obligations, then you know what? That's okay, but you need to just then give your money back. You need to set I don't know. I think I just tend to have my sympathy and my empathy, I guess, is is definitely there, but I don't like seeing people being taken advantage of and pulling out my mental health when things get to be too too scary and intense. And I feel like that happens a lot in this community, probably others too, but yes, I hope that all made sense and came out not insensitive.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

No, it's great. I often have to be right now that we do have a sensitivity to the idea that people have mental health issues, or it could be a chronic continuous thing, or it could just be a moment of time that is just bonkers bad, and it's very difficult to do the things that you need to do. Both things are true, and I like that we are much more aware of that. I grew up at a time nobody cared, pull up your big girl panties and go on. I'm I'm old, I'm really old. Um you didn't talk about that. Nobody talked about going to counseling when I was, you know, like it does so, but at the same time, again, it really can't be your excuse. And if it is your excuse, like you said, it's like one, you need to go get help, you know, or or or somebody around you needs to help you get help, and you need to still take care of business. You need to take care of business, and if you can't take care of business, then it's you you shut it down for a bit, you you know, you it's just it can't you can't just take people's money and expect them not to be upset, and there's only so long you can drag it out. So the Brit Andrews thing, it was always something, and at some point it's like, come on, you know, you're always spending a currency and it might be goodwill.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

And you can see Brit Andrews spending all the goodwill in that time.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

Yeah, she spent all the money, it sounded like, and that is probably what got her in trouble. Like, had she not done the restaurant thing, she would have had all the money she needed to produce the what she needed to produce. Restaurants are not easy. I can imagine that took up all her time to run that thing.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Yeah, I think Laura, you you had said that you you think, and you don't have any confirmation. I know this is alleged, you think that that money probably went to go take care of her restaurant.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

I think no people would have said that, and that's my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Yes, yeah, but it does seem like that might be what happened, yeah. Allegedly, truly allegedly, here. Like we have no confirmation on that, but that does seem to be maybe what happened.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

But if that's not what happened, I would love to know why she's not fulfilling what she needs to do. If that money is not already been spent on things it shouldn't have been, then why is it taking so long to get every you know, okay? The book's written. Okay, well, where's the rest of the stuff?

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Yeah, it's like she was looking into ask for refund. She was looking for new vendors, probably.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Always new vendors to spend less money, probably, you know.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Sierra Hill, who's an author we've talked to, she did a Kickstarter, she did an article for us, and you know, in advance, she figured everything out. So when that came in, she knew where everything was going. You know, like exactly what we have to do on a Kickstarter, and it just sounds like maybe when the time came, the funds that she needed maybe wasn't there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

I think you just can't have it both ways, right? Like you're either a professional adult who can deliver on this thing on time with a business plan, or you are a hot mess garbage fire and you have mental health issues and you can't deliver. But I don't think that you should be going on to Kickstarter and saying I can deliver this, I am this, this thing, but actually I'm a hot mess garbage fire and you should feel bad for me and give me all of your money and never expect a refund. It's one or the other. And I I mean, I'm really sorry that you had someone push back on you and the idea that someone's friends and family should be like stepping in because I often ask the same thing. I'm like, where is this person's people? You know? And I I was I say this because like I got really I got really sad for an author years ago who's one of my favorite authors who had a traumatic brain injury. And after it, she was going on to Goodreads and fighting with people about their reviews. And you could tell that she was spiraling out of control from this traumatic brain injury and that something bad had happened to her. And the whole time I was looking at that, I was like, where is this person's people? Like, why is no one in this person's life seeing that this is happening and stepping in and taking the phone away or taking the computer away and stopping them? And I wasn't like really mad at the author because I knew something had happened to her brain, but I was angry at the situation that that no one was helping her. If if I spiraled out of control and had a TBI or some kind of manic break and went on to Goodreads and started arguing with people, I would hope to God that my husband or my sister would stop me. Like someone in my life would see it and stop me. Uh, and I hope that that is present for a lot of these people who have these issues. And I'm sad for them when they don't have that. Me too.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

And I do think in that particular case, again, I mean, I will, I it like definitely made me take a step back and think because it was someone that, you know, I see comments. Sometimes if someone leaves me something kind of critical, I'll look at their history of comments and see are they just constantly criticizing me? Okay, I don't need to like give this too much thought. And but I was I recognized the username and I looked and like had I had gotten lots of supportive comments, like had watched lots of videos. And so it definitely gave me a moment of just like, okay, no, look, let's look at this again. She had in the video the the woman Ashley, she had mentioned family members, so it wasn't out of nowhere. I understand the point that this person was trying to make by saying, like, not everyone does have a lot of family, but in this case it was not relevant. Yeah. At the same time, though, I I can there's the two things can be true. I can feel sad that she's had mental health issues and maybe not a lot of support. But she's still taking people's money and not delivered, and then also lied about it because she was the one, if you recall, that people were getting their notes back, and you can see, like you said, when edits were made, and it was like the day before, even though she said three weeks ago she was almost done.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

And so, yeah, I mean it's hard to hide the receipts.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Yeah, yeah, everything's documented these days.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

And you know, I was just we were just talking about this issue, but I you've noted that you were working on a script about the internet's age old problem of authors getting involved in reviews about their books. And as you know, Jenna and I are both authors and anthology editors. So, of course, we get why authors might want to defend their babies, but like, dear lord. And I was wondering what's caught your eye for this one, if you would give us a teaser for the next video and some of your thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Sure. So I I feel You've been on Threads, which is where most of this drama always takes place. There was an author named Hannah Sellinger. Probably knew this one was coming. Yep. Who really just, I guess, had some had some folks upset at her book. And I mean, I I have all the all the research and everything, but a little a little sneak peek here. She had written a book about a town that she lives in and or next to the town that she lives in. It's a fictionalized version, but people were not happy with how it was portrayed. All that to say, a couple of women showed up to a book signing she had heckled her a little, I guess, and then were escorted out promptly. And she took to uh, I guess, just making up who she thought was were those women and um doxing them from because she was mad about the reviews that she was left.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

So didn't she threaten to get their jobs them fired?

SPEAKER_00 44:58

She said she's gonna she was gonna call their uh bosses. She actually posted photos of one of the women's sons who is an adult, but it's still he's not involved in this, you know. It's not it's not a child, no, but it's still like, why are you involving someone else? Um wow. And yeah, uncovered some other maybe history of behavior like this. So yeah, it's interesting. And it's it's weird how this just seems to keep happening. And um, oh my goodness, I have a friend who just had her book published. She's an acquaintance, I guess, but her book was just published and we were chatting about it. And she is not someone I know from like my book persona, I guess. I know her from a different part of my life. And so she said she was like looking at Goodreads reviews, and I was like, why are you doing that? Stop it.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Usually we do it to grab review material for for marketing purposes.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

That's the reason I go on as our as our SSM, as our I prefer the book because Goodreads reviewers tend to be tougher, they tend to review tougher, and so it can be hard on our little fragile egos, but you don't you just read it and cry and move on, or go look at the five-star review. But I did see an interesting thing the other day because you readers are like the authors need to stay out of our spaces, okay. And I can't remember what this there was a re somebody talking about this, and I can't, it's gonna be like a paraphrase, but it was sort of saying the spaces exist because of authors, and authors are often readers, so it becomes very difficult sometimes. But the difference is when an author comes in and is responding to what had happened is someone, an author had responded to a review. The review was or it was a it was a social media post, actually. This book, blah, blah, blah. Just really not for me. And the author responded, okay, that's great. Thank you so much for at least giving it a try. Like it was like not a nice response. Or not you're dirt, you know, it was just, well, thank you for giving it a try. And a lot of people were like, that author was like they thought the author might have been snarky, you know, they're trying to read the tone. And, you know, I took it for like, oh, okay, thanks for trying. It's like what I would, okay. And authors should stay out of our spaces. And so I think responding to reviews is probably the thing we need to stay out of, but at the same, you know, I read, I want the I want to go into a reader space, you know, talk about books. So yeah, it's a difficult thing.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

I don't think people should tell us to stay out of the spaces. I just think that it's there are certain things we shouldn't do in the spaces, like argue with reviewers. Like, don't do that. Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

And like from a self-preservation standpoint, like be in the space, but maybe don't be in the space where people are talking about your book. At least that's how I would be. I am very sensitive. I don't know how I would ever handle writing a book. And I I would be one of those authors who's getting upset about a three-star review because my fragile ego can't handle can't handle it. But and I mean, I don't like want to compare like my YouTube channel with writing a whole book because couldn't be me. But I know that like I get very sensitive if I get like a comment that's negative. And honestly, I read my comments on videos for about 24 hours. I'll read the stuff that comes in and then maybe maybe a little more, I guess, and then I take a step back. And I'm like, the people that subscribe and like regularly watch my videos that like me have seen it and left comments. So now it's going out to the general population, and maybe I don't care what these people have to say to me. And it's not that I'm not open to criticism or conversation, but generally I that's when I get my feelings hurt.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

So yeah, the video talk about that for yourself. Comments are engagement, right? So in some ways, you you can respond to comments, that's perfectly normal. Whereas for an author, right? Right? We just have to I, you know, I've been doing this long enough that I'll read bat reviews sometimes just because maybe they're right. Maybe, maybe that did suck, or maybe I missed something, or you know, I had someone to give me a one star because the book was written in third person. Well, okay. How dare you? So I save that. And if I go to events and sometimes they're like, you know, the mean tweet segment on Jimmy. Yeah. You know, that's the one I save for that. Like it's just sort of funny, but you know, okay, whatever. I I would never respond. And I I want to respond to the good ones too. Like, oh, thank you so much. You made my day. Yeah. I only do that if they've emailed me directly or they've DM'd me or something like that. Like if it's on a review, I just don't even push the like or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

There are things you can learn from reviews. Like I respect authors if they go in and they see that there's useful feedback, especially on Goodreads, which people are tougher, but they're also more detailed. And I mean, yes, it's a reader space, but I mean sometimes writer people are reviewing with the idea that authors are around and authors can learn something from that. And I can respect it if you can learn something from that moment. If an author has boundaries and doesn't want to go look at that and get and and they're really sensitive about it, that's also perfectly acceptable. I mean, I I act as our social media manager, so I have to go on to good reads and like look at what's being said about the book so I can grab review, but I'm also one of the authors in the anthology. So sometimes I do see people reviewing my stories, like you can learn from it, but don't respond.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Yeah. That's the difference too. And I think like you have to be you, you know, a little self-aware and know, am I capable of reading something that might potentially hurt my feelings and not feel like I have to jump in and defend myself? Because that's where you get into trouble. And even if you think you're so in the right responding to a review as an author that was not tagged in any way, not summoned, um the internet's gonna come for you. Like it's not gonna go well. People have strong opinions, and that seems like a place where it's been pretty clear how the vast majority of readers on the internet feel that you know they're they're writing their books. Um I'm sorry, they're writing the reviews, assuming that this is not this is for the other readers, potential readers. I'm writing my review, not even thinking that the author might see it.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

Yeah, I should read all that, but it's starting to get hard for authors these days, isn't it? I mean, they're stealing our books. I don't know how you guys do it. And there's nothing we can do about it. No, I'm not readers out there. I am not saying that, you know, I love readers. I love readers. I like talking about books. I am a reader, I try to be a reader, but yeah, it it can be if as an author, it can be difficult if you cannot hold the boundary of not responding. Um, that's that's the hard part. The the the need to defend yourself. I mean, I've had edits come back where I have to sit on it and sit on it, and you know, okay, what are they trying to tell me? Yeah, and it's my book, I'm gonna do what I want to do, and and that's it. I don't have to respond to it unless they ask me again, at which point, you know. But uh yeah, it's it's something you have to learn. And I'm old, I've already told you that. I've had a lot of years to learn, like uh, you know, oh well.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

You gotta put your pants on and have confidence in what you wrote. But a lot of us are our own social media managers. I mean, the cool thing about indie authors is that you have access to us. We are there in those spaces. Instagram, you can find us on YouTube, you can listen to podcasts with us talking, you know, like you can come ask us questions, but the consequence of having access to us is that we're in the spaces as well. And a lot of indie authors, it gets really casual and like the boundaries break down professionally between authors and readers. And then I think that's where it can turn into a dumpster fire on places like Goodreads, where like authors will just come in and be sort of like, Wow, you read this wrong.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

I think readers a lot of times like to be. I mean, I know I like to meet my favorite authors, I I love going to events and meeting my favorite authors, so it's a strange relationship we have to have where we're friends and we're gonna be together and we're gonna talk about books and da-da-da-da-da-da. But you know, this is the limit. You can't respond to my review, you know. Yep. Okay, I'm all right with that.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

I can a lot of what the internet's trying to figure out right now is what those boundaries are. You know, don't at authors with a bad review. That's also like a big thing. It's like we need to have etiquette about this so that there can be some kind of professional boundaries between writers and readers. And I appreciate that the internet is so firm about these things right now. Like people will come after someone who at an author with a bad review. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:07

Yeah, that's just mean.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

It is, yeah. It is truly, truly mean.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Right. If you if an author goes looking for this and they get their feelings hurt, then okay, they they they have that kind of warning. But if you're just tagged in something and you just click on it, you didn't ask for that.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Yeah, yeah. I don't want to know.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

You know, just rationally knowing not everyone's gonna like your book doesn't mean you want your nose rubbed in it.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Yeah, so don't want to go on Instagram and you know, looking for like pictures of you know, Hobbit meals and then get added with someone being like, I hate sci-fi romance. This is weird. Yeah, that was not something I wanted in my day. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

So anyway, well, uh, we always, as you can see, like to talk to our guests as part of the show and and all the topics, and we're just curious if you have a question of us or what we do or anything or not.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

Do either of you have anything exciting in the works, books coming out that you've authored?

SPEAKER_02 55:09

You have something very exciting. On Monday, we have Fantastical Foes, which is our uh Enemies to Lovers Romantic easing coming out, and we're opening for submissions in August for a sapphic, sci-fi, and in September we have a fall release coming out. That's Tender and Tempting Tales. That's us. Me, I have a book coming out under a different name on July 20th. Um, and I'm supposed to be writing probably right now, but I'm not. I'm here right at this very moment.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

What are you doing? Why are you not writing?

SPEAKER_02 55:45

I I have to write a lot, and yeah, it hasn't been happening, but yeah, I always kind of got something going on. What about you, Tara?

SPEAKER_01 55:51

I just finished a collection of Starship Valkyrie short stories that I'm putting out, and I'm going to be at LFG Con with that collection. And it's called Contect Unknown. That was on my week off. I was working on that, doing edits on the stories that were going into it. It's got a novelette, it's got a novella in it, it's got a really fun introduction that I wrote, and it even has a glossary of Starship Valkyrie terms to help people get interested in the in the world. And I'm really excited to take it to LFG Con. They're a new gaming convention here in Southern California, and they always advertise at Strategic Con where I'm on the board. So I saw them there, and I have a friend who comes and plays at Starship Valkyrie. She's like, Can you guys come and play and run like run Starship Valkyrie at LFG Con? And I was like, sure. And then I was talking to them and they invited me to come to an author signing. So I'm really excited to actually do a real author signing at a gaming convention and sell Starship Valkyrie to and smut to a bunch of gamers. You'd be surprised how many neckbeard gamers really want smut. It's kind of great.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

Who knew that crossover was there? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

I didn't know, but they call me the smut goblin at StratCon. I walk around with like my trench coat and I'm like, hey, I want to buy some smut.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

Oh my gosh. I told you to trademark that, but I did see it on some merch the other day. Smut goblin. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

I don't need to trademark it. As long as someone doesn't come in and be like, I'm trademarking smut goblin. I'm smut goblin. You can't make me.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

You know, the one time, a lot of times when I feel like, oh, I want to leave a comment on one of your videos, Laura, it's usually you you've said something to the effect of, well, I'm not an author and I don't know how these things work, but this is my sense. And I'm like, well, I'll tell you how it works.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

You read that the bookish people be like, get out of our space.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Yeah, you're on a track with that, or it's even worse than you think.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Honestly, I've had some people email me and be like, hey, if you ever like need to have reassurance on something like that an author would know that you don't necessarily know firsthand, let me know. And honestly, part of why I I make decl disclaimers like that is because I know someone is gonna be like, Well, you're not an author, so you don't understand XYZ, even if it's something that could be variable between different different people and different like situations. It's like, you know what? I'm just gonna say this is not my personal authors don't know either.

SPEAKER_02 58:17

When I look at the muck that a lot of, especially debut authors step into, I'm like, you know, how did you not know not to do that? They just don't.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Jenna's been around the publishing world for a while, and I'm not gonna say how many years because she's gonna start talking about how old she is. We try to don't know. You could probably ask Jenna for a quote for like it does is this a real thing in publishing in Jenna will probably know because she's been an agent and a publisher now, and an author, and a ghostwriter. So she's done basically all the jobs.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

Yeah, all right. You're my you're my go-to now.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Yeah, I've been traditionally published, I indie publish, yeah. So I sort of have a sense of it all. And yeah, you do. Um, and it is shocking to me sometimes when people step in it, and I'm just like, the internet has everything you need to know about what not to do. And how did they miss that? I I just I don't even know. Or how did your agent not tell you, please don't do this, please don't do that? Someone was saying they we need morality clauses now in contracts, because some authors are like really doing some crazy stuff. We we do have something to that effect, you know.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

Yeah, we had to have one. There's always uh there should be like a name, like an author name on every rule that we have. But this one, we were like, Oh, we need a morality clause.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Well, it's called code of conduct or something. I just called it the no asshole clause.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

Wasn't that Rachel's original? Like, she sent it to you and you she called it the no asshole call.

SPEAKER_02 59:45

No, I called it the no asshole. She's the one that said, How about code of conduct? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Oh, no, she got she got HR on you. Yeah, gotcha. Oh Rachel.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

So anyway. Crazy.

unknown 59:58

All right.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

All right, people. Uh so what is your current book recommendation or your TV show that you're reading or watching for the week? Something bookish is always appreciated for this.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

Well, this isn't necessarily recent. Well, it was like maybe a month ago I read this, but it just like is just living in my head. Is the book The River Is Waiting by Wally Lamb, which I read yeah, like a month ago, and it just like ruined my life. But like the good kind, it's just it was had such an effect on me that I did not see coming. It is just such a captivating story and really, really sad. I am not a crier, and I cried for like the entire like last half of the book. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

It was just I love that you like books that ruin you. So many people avoid that, and I think that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

Yeah, I do. And and I don't even necessarily seek them out. I read a lot of different things, but sometimes you just need one that like just destroys you a little bit. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

I didn't have when I read House of the Cerulean Sea, it didn't destroy me, but it lived with me for a long time. I've read a lot of books. I remember some of parts of a lot of them. Some of them I've totally forgotten, and there's always that few that sort of just get right in.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

Yeah. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

Yep, that was one of those.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

I went to Little Tokyo for my birthday, as I tend to do, and they had just reopened Kinokunya, uh, and they had a larger section of uh Japanese to English translations of like Japanese novels, which I love to grab, you know, Natsu Karino. She has like some like murder mysteries and stuff, but I actually found a book. I think it's called Isle of Kagoshima, but it's like a Japanese outlander, and it's a it's a romance novel, and she goes back in time and to the to the era of like the Shinsengumi and to the the Bakumats. And I'm so excited about this. I'm like, oh my god, a Japanese outlander. This is awesome. So that is currently my like my fascination finding a Japanese outlander for my birthday. It's like all the things that I love suddenly coming together. I'm very excited about it. How about you, Jenna?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Well, I you know, I recently saw that Casey McQuiston has worked on a sequel to Red, White, and Royal Blue. It's not a book, it's a show from the movie. I am excited about that because I thought that adaptation was really good. I really like that adaptation. In terms of what I'm reading, I'm supposed to be writing. So and I'm at a place where I have to pick a book. And picking a book is always the hardest for me because I look at my bookshelves and I want to read them all right this moment, and then I walk away because I'm too overwhelmed and I read nothing. Um, but what I pulled as possibilities is either Real by Kennedy Ryan, because I like the last book of hers I read, JD Robb's Stolen in Death, because I need to catch up on those, and it's been a while, and Or Perfect Storm by Carly Fortune, because I've never read her, but she's one of the book talkie authors that are very popular. So that's I'm gonna try and pick one of those. Um I help you. I did narrowed it down. Good job. Yeah, narrowed it down to three. The book witch, which I really, really enjoyed. And if you're a book reader, there's a lot of little winks and nods and you know, Easter eggs for people who love books. So I enjoyed that too. That was by Meg Schaefer, the book witch. But anyway, so that's my choice right now of what to read. But who knows? I may go downstairs and like, nope, I'm gonna choose that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

Well, it's summertime. I think you want to read JD Robb and catch up on her thriller.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:43

And this one is stolen in death. And I don't know if you've ever read JD Robb, but Rourke kind of grew up in the streets. He was a smuggler, he was a thief and a pickpocket. He's Irish. Now he's a bajillionaire.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

Is that a category of romance? The bajillionaire romance.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

And that idea that the topic is stolen in death makes me think he's going to be a part of this story. And when even Rourke are working together, because sleuthing couples are my jam. I I like it when he may he's in every book, but when he's much more involved with her, you know, that's my favorite. So that's why I'm leaning towards that one. Because, you know, he's gonna nick something or you know, yeah, yeah, pick a lock, or I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

All right, folks, we are Tender and Tempting Tales. You can find us on Instagram, that's Tender and Tempting Tales. You can follow us there and find out everything that we're publishing and find out about all of our zines coming out. We have a call submission for submissions opening up in August. That's Sapphics of Saturn, for which I am the editor. We are looking for Sapphic science fiction romance stories for that zine. We're looking for three to five stories that are 5,000 to 7,000 words. If you have any inquiries about that, the homework just went up today. This is Thursday, the 9th of July. The homework should be available for you to go read. If you have any questions, feel free to comment on that post or send me a message on Substack. I'd be happy to help you out. We are also publishing our second zine on Monday. That's going to be Fantastical Foes. That is Enemies to Lovers Romanticity. It's full of wonderful features and games edited by Erna Semper. I am in it. It is a very good zine. I'm very, very proud of it. I hope that people will grab it on KU as soon as they can. We also have our new anthology out, Fireworks and Flirtation. Perfect for summer reading. You can put it right in your beach tote. It has got 10 wonderful summer romances in it that include fireworks and flirtation. And until next time, Jenna.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:32

Well, I want to first thank Laura for being here. This was so fun. So fun. Thank you guys for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

Wonderful to have you guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

And remind everybody, we will have links to Laura's uh YouTube. You're gonna want to check it out. It's because you know, if you want to know the bookish side of the internet, yes, the bookish side of the internet, there's a lot of great stuff there. It's a lot of fun to keep up on the book community. And to everybody who's listening, wherever you're listening, thank you so much. Please like, subscribe, leave us a comment, hot take, whatever we want to hear it. And until next time, peace, love, and happily ever after.