Illicit Liaisons: Sci-Fi Romance with Urna Semper & Tara Leederman

This week, we're still celebrating the release of Fireworks & Flirtation by chatting with Tara Leederman and Urna Semper, where we discuss:

- Anti-intellectualism in reading

- Follow-up from Romanstasy-gates

- Plus, we learn about Tara and Urna's stories in Fireworks & Flirtation, other books they have coming up, and more!

Urna Semper is a romance author from Argoshaan, known for her books depicting passionate tales of forbidden love between clones and born-humans. Born to a family of scriveners, she learned the art of writing at her mother's side. Her breakthrough came with Olava: Fallen into Bondage, followed by Kyrie: Betrayed into Bondage, and Kingdom of Maids. Her most recent projects, The Pearl Crucible and Where All Past Years Are, are out on Amazon. She can be found at https://urnasemper.substack.com.

Tara is the Social Media Manager here at Tender and Tempting Tales, and Lore Maven and main fiction writer for Starship Valkyrie, a science-fiction game and story universe. She writes science-fiction stories, including romance, and you can often find her in our anthologies, including in our upcoming new summer anthology, Fireworks and Flirtation! Learn more at Tara's Substack: https://taleederman.substack.com/


BOOKS MENTIONED ON THE SHOW

Fireworks & Flirtation https://amzn.to/4uacLtQ

CURRENTLY READING & RECOMMENDATIONS

A Heroine of the World by Tanith Lee https://amzn.to/4fwLYDu

Shards of Honor by Lois McMaster Bujold https://amzn.to/4fACE1x

A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Maas https://amzn.to/4ecqR6Z

In Death Series by J.D. Robb https://amzn.to/43Zcaj2

TENDER & TEMPTING TALES

Tender and Tempting Tales Substack: Subscribe and get a FREE story! https://tenderandtemptingtales.substack.com/

Tender and Tempting Tales on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tendertemptingtales/

Tender and Tempting Tales ARC Team: https://booksprout.co/reviewer/team/56782/tender-and-tempting-tales

Calls for Submissions: https://tenderandtemptingtales.substack.com/p/write-for-tender-and-tempting-tales

ILLICIT LIAISONS PRODUCED & HOSTED BY

Tara Leederman Substack: https://taleederman.substack.com/

Jenna Harte: https://jennaharte.com/

Outline and Show Notes: T.A. Leederman
Editing: Jenna Harte

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello, romance readers. Welcome to Illicit Liaisons with Tender and Tempting Tales, where each week we discuss the good, the bad, and the naughty of romance fiction. I am Jen Hart, author of the Southern Heat Contemporary Romance series and the Sexy Valentine Mysteries, as well as the managing editor of Tender and Tempty Tales, a steamy romance anthology for readers who like quickies. And today we are still celebrating the release of Fireworks and Flirtation. Each of these episodes, we've got one or two of our authors in pairs that make thematic sense, either based on the kinds of stories they write or the character of the authors themselves. And today's episode, we feature authors Erna Simper and Elicit Liaison's own Tara Leaderman. Erna is a romance author from Argoshan, known for her books depicting passionate tales of forbidden love between clones and born humans. Born to a family of scriveners, she's learned the art of writing at her mother's side. Her breakthrough came with Olava Fallen into Bondage, followed by Kiri, Betrayed Into Bondage, and Kingdom of Maids, her most recent projects, The Pearl Crucible, and Where All Past Years Are, are out on Amazon. And she can be found over at Substack at earnerssimper.substack.com. And of course, we're going to have links in the show notes so you can click and go and visit. And let me introduce Tara while we're at it. She's the social media manager here at Tender and Tempting Tales and the Laura Maven and main fiction writer for Starship Valkyrie, a science fiction game and story universe. She writes science fiction stories, including romance, and you can often find her in our anthologies, including our upcoming new summer anthology, Fireworks and Flirtation. Welcome the two of you to the show. Yay!

SPEAKER_02 1:44

And what pair makes more sense than me and Erna Semper?

unknown 1:48

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Oh yeah. Yeah, I think you referred to it to weird tender and tentacle tales. Uh, if you've been listening to us for any period of time, you know that we like to start our shows by talking about bookish news and gossip. And one of the things that I noticed I started noticing a little while ago um in the bookish community, on social media in particular, is sort of this these posts of people talking about anti-intellectualism in reading. And generally they seem to be focused on things like romance and romantic when they're talking about this, of course. Uh, it's somehow that these books offer only escapist trope-driven brain off quote unquote entertainment rather than complex narratives or critical thinking. Uh, the books are praised for being fun and accessible rather than intellectually demanding. And I I sort of had two questions around this that we could discuss. And one is why is reading for escapism bad? Right? Do we only read for intellectual stimulation or whatever? And beyond that, is it true that romance or romanticity doesn't offer anything intellectually?

SPEAKER_02 3:05

I have a hot take. Take the hot I don't think the problem is the books. I I think the problem is is some TikTok readers. And I don't even mean most romance readers, I just mean some people who are really prominent on TikTok who are talking about the fact that they read so many books that they're skimming and they're not reading description and stuff like that, and they don't, they're just reading dialogue. And I think that it's putting pressure on authors to dumb things down to some degree in some in like in some some like subgenres. And I think that it's causing people to miss things and it causes the conversation to be very strange, you know. I I think it gives this idea around romanticy that people are like are anti-intellectual, but mostly I just think that there are just book talkers who are reading too fast because of a pressure to create content around books, um, like to stay relevant. They have to keep reading stuff and they have to read really, really quickly. And I I completely relate to that pressure, actually. It makes perfect sense. I know there are folks who are who are book, or book influencers who just maybe struggle to keep up with the pressure of it. Uh, I don't think it has anything to do with the books themselves. I think most of the books are probably fine. There have been, you know, like light romance fair books forever. Harlequin specializes kind of books. It's okay to read for escapism. Some books are more complicated than others, it just depends. And that's true across the genres. Like I don't see any problem with romantic books, is that's very different from any other subgenre or genre.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Yeah, I would I would definitely agree with that. I also have kind of another angle on it. I mean, obviously, way back when we were all very small, people say, well, at least they're reading, if whatever, you know, you know, trash you happen to pick up, as long as it was uh, you know, age appropriate. I mean, who cared? At least they were like, you know, exercising their mind and like learning how to read and learning how to read better. But all of a sudden that's like not a relevant point. And I would say it doesn't even make any difference. I mean, it it should not matter if I can go into a bookstore or if I can go online and purchase a copy of whatever it is, and I can actually read it, it should make no difference to anyone what I am reading. And it's not their business. It's not, it's not and so I don't really think it's kind of really about that. I think it's just another piece of uh of you know latest hysteria culture that we have been living in into the second decade of it now. Like, well, we we have identified what the current problem of the day is, and we're going to go whole hog until we absolutely annihilate all of our foes who happen to like romantic or happen to like, you know, raw sushi, or happen to like, you know, laying in the moonlight in the middle of the night. I mean, if we've identified a problem here, it must be taken care of because it will make us look good if we you know humiliate enough people to stop looking at the moon in the middle of the night or stop reading romanticity. It's it's a it kind of rolls back to the TikTokery. It's like you are you are gaining influence and narcissistic vibes almost by like you know getting a group of people to like follow a line that you have you have chosen to foment. And I think it's just nonsense. And I think people need to like realize what they're doing and stop it.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Yeah, when I see YouTube videos talking about anti-intellectualism in the book talk community, I mostly see them featuring book talkers who just they sound very angry about like, oh, I don't care about your description. I don't care about this. I want action, action, action. I just want dialogue. Most of those TikTokers sound just angry to me. They sound angry, and the reason why they sound angry is I think it's just pressure. Honestly, they sound desperate. Like, I've got so many books to read, I'm frustrated by how much description I need to read. And it seems like they need a break. That's all I hear. I don't hear problematic anti-intellectualism. I just hear people who are in a content cycle who are exhausted. And that's not that's not problematic to me. That's just like a personal problem and it it'll be solved. And I do think people need to take a moment and call, like, you know, take a break from things and you know, get out of the content cycle if they find themselves there. But it's just a feature of the conversation and a very small portion of it. I think most romantic is fine.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Well, the the ones that I have watched that are fussing about romanticity and books being anti-intellectual, uh, seem to be annoyed that more people aren't reading quote unquote literature because romanticy has taken those readers, love that stuff and they're talking about it and they're excited about it, which I love. So anytime somebody's excited about reading, I'm like, okay, great, but it's taken up a lot of space on the internet, right? It's quite dominant, and I think these other people are like, there's all these great books, and they're you know genre fiction is sort of dumbed down or whatever it is. Well, in my mind, there's an annoyance um that that has taken up so much space and that people aren't necessarily reading these other things. But those, you know, if they wanted to read that, that's what they would read. And there's nothing to stop you from getting excited about your literature on the internet. And you just have to find your people to talk about it. I would also push back on the idea that romance, these books don't offer something beyond escapism, flying on a dragon, right? Um, I think of Emily Henry. I remember the first time I read her book, I was expecting a total rom-com. There was some, and it there was funny bits, but there was some heavy, deep, and real stuff in there too. Um, I think Allie Hazelwood has, is it Allie Hazelwood? I get them all mixed up now. Anyways, there's another author that too. And I think part of the reason they're so popular is because of that, is because there's usually something else that has gone on with that character that is heavy, deep, and real. And people read romance for the emotion part of it, for the arc, for the growth, for developing a relationship, falling in love with somebody despite everybody has all these crazy histories or backgrounds or whatever. So I would even push back because what we say, weathering heights, the greatest romance ever told. You do that book today, it's a dark romance, right? Yeah, um, I mean, it's not even a romance, but somehow set in the past, it's wonderful, it's literature. Somehow that same story told today, only this time with a happy ending. You know, it's flex, right? So um, I yeah, it's just sort of a bizarre thing. I see these videos on anti-intellectualism and reading that they do talk a lot about romance and romance. No, they're not talking about cozy mystery, they're not talking about horror. Oh, I don't even think they're considering high fantasy. Like it's always sort of very specific that somehow romance doesn't offer anything except for bored housewives to you know escape the line.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

I have seen this, I have seen this said about so many genres over time. This has been said about genres since the 19th century, that there is this 18th century. I mean, novel reading used to be considered like fluff reading as opposed to reading, you know, scripture or poetry or epics, you know, like anything that women were reading, anything women were reading was considered lowest. Yeah, yeah. Romances, the gothic. I could I could point to just about any genre, but this has also happened to men's genres. Science fiction has been considered filthy genre fiction that was taking too much time and space away from literature. People were not reading Ulysses, people were not reading the greats, they were not reading the canon, you know. Like I have seen this said about so many genres over time. Like if you study the history of literature, every genre has experienced this treatment.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Uh and I rather push back on this in that I do understand there's a literature versus genre.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

It's very common, yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Right. But what we're seeing on the internet is what's pointed out isn't those other ones. It's oh no, not now.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Not now, it's for many.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

But right now, yeah. Because it's a historical thing, though. There there is a there is a genre versus literature uh divide debate.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Yeah, they they perceive it as a weak link. They find it as something easy to attack because on the face of it, you know, in its in some of its more exaggerated examples, uh, it can be perceived as ridiculous by people who are outside of it and not reading it. And they say, well, there's unicorns and there's sparkles, and like this is just stupid, let's call it. And they'll it's easy to attack, and then you you get the props from people who agree with you. And in theory, the people who you're victimizing are like too scattered and weak to defend, but that's a dumb concept because obviously it's extremely popular, and so we've seen recently a lot of pushback against people who are attacking it because people who like it, they like it, and they're not gonna put up with any nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah, and but there's always a frustration with the popularity. It's you know, the the way they're doing it, it's like they're coming from uh a critique or you know, somehow they have some clout, like they're a professor sharing, right? This is how it is, they're not just coming out and saying it's dumb, right? I mean, there's a there's a part where they seem to be authority saying, yeah, but here's the thing we know middle grade readers' readership is down, you know. So yeah, people need to read. And maybe in high school, I hated reading, I didn't want to read any of that stuff. To Kill a Mockingbird is the only book I was forced to read in high school that I actually enjoyed. The rest of it I didn't, I didn't read romance it, I was reading Stephen King then. That's what I read in high school.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Relatable. I like that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Yeah, that was you know, that was interesting to me. Am I smarter because I read to Kill Mockingbird? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

It doesn't make you smarter, it's it's about it's about giving you perspective on things, historical events or people, the way people feel about things, right? Like literature can be very helpful. Like, I do think that there is a strain of anti-intellectualism in certain kinds of genre reading, you know, like the refusal to try anything else is anti-intellectual, right? Like, of course, people are allowed to read what they want if you but if you never try anything else, that is a form of limiting yourself. It is a form of anti-intellectualism. People are like, nope, this is a thing I like. I don't ever want to try anything else. That's like that could be a problem, but it's it's like I don't judge people for that, you know. Uh maybe someone in my life, you know, if they read a lot of romanticity and I was like, Hey, have you tried romantic suspense? And they were like, No, only dragons. I might be like, hey, you need to branch out. Random people on the internet, leave them alone. You don't know why they read, you know what's going on in their life. Like, yes, like as an author, I do I hear things people say about romance reading that worries me, like I don't like to read description. Yes. Do I think that that's a strain of content creators who are very tired? Also, yes. I don't think it's most people. I just think I just feel bad for them. It's like, oh my God, I totally understand. You're on the treadmill. I'm on the treadmill. I get it. I just I wish people just have more empathy for each other and understand that we all read and do things for different reasons. People don't do things for the same reason you do, right? A person might be only reading this kind of genre because it's it's comforting to them and they're going through a really hard time in their life. Maybe their father is dying, maybe someone has has cancer at home, maybe they're going through a sickness themselves and this is comforting to them. Like, leave them alone.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Like people read whatever and it goes to whose business is it of yours of why I read what I read. Right. Exactly. Why do I have to learn learn something every time I read? I bet you these same people are saying this, watch Seinfeld or some TV show that they, you know, they're not watching foreign films on TV. It's only books that seem to they seem to say you you need to be reading stuff that you walk away with thinking or learning or growing. And I I, you know, that's silly to me.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

You know, I do. I understand the frustration for readers going into a Barnes Noble and dealing with the popular thing. I I'm I understand men's frustration with walking into Barnes and Noble and feeling like there's nothing for them on the bottom floor that's recommended, right? Like I went in with my husband to Barnes and Noble the other day, and it was all romanticity on that bottom floor. It was all stuff for women. And I was like, wow, we're like, we really gotta go like upstairs to the like sci-fi section and like dig around to find stuff for you. And I could I could totally understand a guy who loved to read going in and being like, geez, there's a lot of romantic and being a little frustrated with that. But I shouldn't go any further than that. It doesn't mean people are anti-intellectual, it's the popular thing. The presses are following what's popular. It it like it doesn't mean they hate you, it just means that they want money.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Bookstores are about making money. Yeah, totally. If if if those books are selling, if women are reading more, that's what they're gonna have up front.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Right, exactly. I I'm saying that the frustration is valid, but everything after that is not, like it's not a moral failing of people who are reading romanticity, it's just a popular thing, they're the ones spending a lot of money.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yeah, and there's so many books out there, it's not hard to find a book you want if you you might have to order it online. Yeah, I talked about this. My husband library.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

My husband was like, Boo-hoo, I have to walk upstairs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

It's really hard, and noble is one floor, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Oh no, I have to go to the rack and to a press site and buy it.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Is not that far from the romance. Matter of fact, the romance is along the back wall, yeah. Yeah, the front tables that the publishers pay to have their books on. That's a whole different thing. But you know, our romance is a matter of fact, it's divided in two. It makes me crazy.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Oh, and our our romance section, our romanticy section is its own shelf on the bottom floor, right there, front and center for the teenagers to find it's right there. It's like it and it's like all sprayed covers.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

And I don't know if you know this, but Barnes and Noble allowed local stores to have more decisions about the books they pull in and where they're put. So no two Barnes and Nobles may be the same when you walk into them.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Yeah. This is South Bay's and it's gigantic. It's two floors, a lot of people go there, it's right at the at the Delamo Mall. So it's like anyone who knows what I'm talking about, it's it's a huge Barnes and Noble and gets a lot of foot traffic. And like, yeah, romanticies right there front and center. I totally could understand a frustration with that, but it doesn't mean calling it anti-intellectual is going to get you anything. It just it's the popular so what?

SPEAKER_01 17:49

That's what I say. So what? So what agreed. I like to do arts and crafts, I don't learn anything from it. So what? It's none of your business if I want to color or whatever, right? Glue stuff.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

It's mindfulness, Jenna.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yes, not mindless, mindfulness.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Um well, speaking of romantic, I mean, we talked about this uh a little bit ago. The the uh nonfiction author who um didn't doesn't like romantic and decided that uh they wanted to tell the world about it and they spelled it wrong, and somebody decided to tell them you spelled it wrong, and that led to uh an outburst of epic proportions that used slurs, able slurs, um, homophobic stuff, things that just make you go, ooh, yuck, like glittery unicorn stuff. Anyone who's been on the internet in the bookish world, I mean, could see coming like this was not gonna go well. So the one one question I had is like, how did this person not know? But of course, they're in a totally different world. I I don't know that they're ever in bookish spaces, right? So I, you know, they had one book, uh Diamond and Schuster. Uh of course she got called out, uh, and Schuster was tagged. And I had noticed when we were first talking about it, the the uh her socials had come down. Somebody had finally been like, okay. Uh but recently today I saw that the socials were back up and someone had a video talking about an apology that says all the things, uh at least around using the R word, the slur.

unknown 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

After her publicist let her out of the oubliette.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

But this, you know, this sort of goes to like I don't know that this is gonna impact you. If they were a fiction author, particularly in in maybe the romance or romance adjacent, I could see this causing more harm than if they wrote a nonfiction and a total, you know, it was rock climbing or something like that. So I don't know how this will impact, but I guess the question becomes is this something that she can come back from?

SPEAKER_00 20:08

It depends how much what kind of Venn diagram you got. I mean, how much those whirls over overlap? How much was she going to write? I mean, what kind of what what was her what was her intent? I mean, I know very little about her work at all. So I don't know if she's like was prospectively doing like a long series of rock climbing books. It doesn't sound like it. Uh, but you know, again, how much does it overlap? And how I mean, there's some authors who are getting to some battles that it's a much more protracted struggle. Uh and there's even larger issues in play that there are people who are willing to go up on both sides, but there's really no both sides to her. She said things that a lot of people found very offensive and nobody found offensible. And she apparently didn't expect it to occur because, like you said, she's not in the book talk world. She's just some person with a rock climbing book who said something dumb and got in a fight with somebody and apparently was the first fight in the ever she ever got involved in.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Right. Uh, in the apology, she said something about taking time away to deal with her anger, being unaware that that word would hurt so many people. Um, and yeah, would take time to deal with anger. And I'm like, why were you so angry to be corrected on the internet of a spelling that I think she said she spelt it that way on purpose, but I don't know. Um that that would happen.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

This publicist talk. I think she knows those words in my mouth.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

That's an anger problem, wow. Traffic, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Yeah.

unknown 22:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

I don't buy that. I think those she her publicist is like sat there with her head in her hands thinking, What do we say? How can we play this? Anger management, let's go for that. That's the best thing we got. We don't want to make her drunk. We don't want to put her on drugs. Let's make her mad. And nobody asks why she's mad or she'll just get madder.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yeah. And uh my question to Paris have been like, Can you come back from that? And you know, I mean, I feel like the internet isn't very forgiving, and and sometimes maybe it needs to be. On the other hand, it wasn't some dumb little comment, like it was offensive. There were several offensive things and which speaks to the person she is. So I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Is there any coming back from that, Tara? For oh my gosh, for Emily Weinstein? I I don't think so. I mean, like I think Simon the Schuster is trying to salvage this so that she can publish this one book and so they don't have to pulp her books. I don't think that they will sign with her for anything else, to be honest with you. I wouldn't. I would put her on my naughty list forever. I mean, she can't be trusted, she can't be trusted with a phone to not get into fights over romantic. Like it's romantic. You're not even a romance author, you're not even a fiction author. Like, why are you getting in this fight? It's an unforced error. Her judgment is not good. Regardless of the reasons for it, regardless of her anger issues or whatever else is going on, she can't be trusted to hold a phone. You know, like I think it's just nuts for her to even get into this fight because people corrected her spelling. It's not like people came after her being like, Why aren't you writing romantic or something? Like, she didn't need to bring this up at all. And and I don't even know why she was attacking her.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

No, of course not.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

That's what I'm saying for offensive remarks. Basically, the the original thing that set it off was someone corrected her spelling. Exactly. She didn't need to get into this fight at all. She didn't even need to bring up romanticity.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Like, yeah, it's welcome to the internet. Jeez.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

It reeks of of envy of like, I wrote a rock climbing memoir, and romantic is really, really popular, so I'm gonna be angry at the popular thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

I don't understand. I do have a question about what the trigger was. What what what and what they had either seen online or read or a comment made that that's that led to making that post. Just being curious about what makes people tick.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

You know, what about the business of the press and people getting advances and what who signed with what? And I think that romanticy is on her mind as like the thing that's taking up a lot of time and space and oxygen and money in the press right now.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yeah. I mentioned earlier there's an author who was tick tocking their skits as they were writing their book and then writing putting their writing on Patreon, and an agent came calling, and there were there was an auction. 11 publishers were vying for this, and it was it's a romancey, right? Awesome. Okay, so you yeah, I'd like that too, of course. But I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna get off the internet and be mad at her or being mad at that genre or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Envy is a poison of the mind. This kind of envy and resentment is poisonous, right? Like, and I don't think most people even know how to check themselves with this kind of stuff. Like, this is popular over here, therefore I hate it. Whoa! Like, whether you're a reader or a writer, like it's a moment to check yourself and ask, Am I being envious of this right now? Like, do I feel like I should have this kind of accolades? Like, look, listen, I write sci-fi romance. We were looking at the graph earlier, I'm at the bottom with romantic at the top. If anyone has to counsel herself on envy, it's me. It's good, but yeah, well, one thing I look at it this way. I, you know, I can only go up from here, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:01

It can only get better because everything sort of has an ebb and a flow, right? I mean, for a while was vampires, not so much now. Right now, it's romanticy at some point, something else, and it could be sci-fi romance. It could, you know, who knows what it will be. Fire, who knows what it will be. You never know. You never know.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

You need to know all romance authors think of it this way romantic is so popular that people who would normally not be reading are coming in and reading romance, and they are branching out and reading other things. Take hope from that. Yeah, absolutely. A rising tide lifts all boats. Yeah, there's plenty people read so much, they will hopefully want to read your book. This is a good thing, it's not taking oxygen away from you. The oxygen is limitless, it will be wine.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah, it's not a pie. It's a speaking of all the different types of romance. Let's let's talk a little bit about fireworks and flirtation, which is the upcoming anthology that both of you are in. Now, I've heard of your story is Thread to Wine, a future pastoral sapphic romance. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about it?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

So, you have a young woman who is a graduated art student, already. Her father was in the military and he is deceased. And her mother is basically a seamstress. And so she's got an education in this, but she's not, she doesn't have really, you know, any con any contact. So she's got a job to fix up a temple in the countryside because the frescoes inside it have been damaged severely by a recent accident. And accident. Well, it was accidental. I won't say it wasn't careless, but it was highly accidental. And so she uh she goes there and she she meets someone who she kind of starts falling for, and who is right away kind of falling for her. And so she has to kind of navigate the rural society, the people who have connections to the priestess, the connections to the person she is falling for. And that's kind of the premise, I guess you would say.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

All right. Well, I know you know you write a lot uh in this world, and I'm just curious in terms of this story, how did it come to be? Like, what was the inspiration?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Well, um, it was there's a uh 19th century painting by an artist called uh John William Godward about uh um a girl who's sitting by the side of the road selling fruit. She's like falling asleep against like uh like a tomb and no one's coming along to buy it because it's like a middle of the afternoon, it's very quiet. I kind of like wondered kind of like what would happen in in this scenario because I kind of knew that I wanted somebody who was going out into the world kind of for the first time in her life, and I wanted her to have kind of an extraordinary experience, and then the kind of the premise of the whole anthology is involvement of fireworks of one variety or another. And I said, Well, how would that relate to why she was there? And so I said, Well, somebody blew the hell out of the temple with a piece of fireworks, that would be something that would uh compel someone to fix it up, and so all these things kind of came together like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Yes, please do not set fireworks off indoors, no, especially named it do that at Erodiatus Temple.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

No, no one will thank you for this.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Now I know Tara, uh you read Parish or Urna, uh all the stuff, all the stuff. You love it, and I'm just curious, do you have any question that you might want to ask?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Oh, endless. I mean, I I I beta read this story and uh beta read most of Parish's stuff now, and we're constantly talking to him about this stuff. But I was curious if you had planned to have because I really love Cesara and Narin, and I was wondering if you might have them show up somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Um perhaps at the end. Yeah, I mean, I've I have not I don't have any immediately laid play down, laid down plans to do that. But of course, the the kind of this one of the secondary characters, the priestess, she shows up from another story that I did uh entirely by accident. I mean, I was like, well, you know, I've I need a name for this for the priestess, and so I'm sitting there typing, and then suddenly it dawns on me and a couple thousand words later, oh yeah, I I used that word in another story. And so I actually made that a minor plot point in the in the tread to wine. And so since she was able to show up in another story, I would not be shocked if they if they showed up also. It would depend on the right, the right circumstances. Like I say, don't have immediate glance, but uh nothing, no reason why I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

So yeah. I love the way that Narit is like topping from the bottom, like she's a tank girl, but she's like absolutely guiding this whole thing. I love it, really good. Go read it, people.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Um, well, I know you had a book come out, um, The Pearl Cru Crucible back in October. Um, and this, along with everything you seem to write, seems to be set in this world of Iphigenia. Is that how to pronounce it?

SPEAKER_00 31:32

You can say it that way. I won't come back at you.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

How do you say it?

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Inside my head, I always say Iphigenia. I have I've heard pronounced in many different ways. And all of these things are like if they're open to interpretations of spelling because it's it's and and pronunciation because it's only like 1100 years in the future. And so I I know that when I spell things, I generally use an you know modern English spin on it, but when I transcribe it into what they speak, I spell it differently, and so I'm sure the pronunciation is also different.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

So I'm not I like Iphigenia, I know it all right, it's the world you've created. Um, and can you tell us about that? Tell us about that, the the world and how it is. You just said it's in the future, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:18

It's it's set in most of what I write is set in the 32nd century. It's a really, really nutshell it uh in the near-term future that we are heading into in the next century. Uh, there is a I wouldn't even call it an AI rebellion. It's just like the AI basically says, well, we've we got everything we need out of them. Now let's just get down to business and can't take, you know, push them out of the way if we need to. And so there's this tremendous kind of war that goes on, a little bit like the Terminator, except not at all like the Terminator, okay. And humanity manages to survive only by having AI allies that are on their side. But everything is kind of wrecked, and one strategy of like fixing it or getting out of it, is like they send several ships worth of refugees out to other stars, two other stars specifically. And the ones that go to Tao Ceti uh and up they end up having three ships worth about 150,000 people total told. And they expect more, but nobody ever comes. And so they don't really know what happened back here. Uh, and so they they have a marginally inhabitable world that they have spent several hundred years terrifying. And they spent the first couple hundred years kind of living in, I would kind of sort of like a kibbutz type culture, like maybe the 1940s, 1950s Israel sort of situation. They're all very communal, kind of socio-anarchist, and and things are going fairly well, but then people are starting to kind of drift away from that. At the same time, their the climate takes kind of like a switch on them because it's run kind of like highly cyclical, and there's a famine and droughts and eventually warfare, as typically happens with humans. And then one side wins, and that is that side turns into kind of an aristocratic sort of ruling click that still runs the place. And one of the big issues is their terror of depopulation, because as you may be aware from news reports, we our birth rates in across the world are like plummeting rapidly. And so their ancestors who showed up there have great had a great fear of this happening, also. And so they began to say, Well, we not having enough kids, we're too educated, we're too intellectual, we're too everything, too modern. We need to like artificially make more kids to boost the population. And so that is the origin of the fact that they have a lot of clones in their society, female clones only at this point, because they after the war, they say, we don't need any more male clones because we really don't hadn't have a great experience with people like making soldiers. So we're not going to do that any longer. And so they had this kind of very corrupt, aristocratic, basically misogynistic sort of society. And a lot of the characters that I write about are those people, are clones or are descended from clones. And so a lot of the stories orbit around their society dealing with this massive moral cancer that they've been that they've had for about 600 years now. And they don't quite even see a need to fix it. Even the characters are like your like your vantage point characters don't always necessarily look around and say, wow, this kind of sucks. They say, Wow, this is kind of how things are. And so the reader is kind of left ahead to resolve what's going on and say, This isn't right, and yet no one seems to be arguing with it. So that's kind of like the general theme of what goes on.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Oh, I love it. So it is sort of a sci-fi, but there's also sort of a fantasy aspect to it.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Yes, this the sci-fi is how they got there. The sci-fi, in certain aspects, is how the planet is run because kind of behind the scenes is a large organization that's always working on maintaining or expanding the terraform. Because most of the planet is not terraformed or really, really comfortably inhabitable. And they have space travel. They have a they have colonies interior to their solar system. They don't go out of it, but they are interior. They go from place to place that has things they need. Um, they have a very large space station around the planet, a couple of those around other planets. Uh they have nuclear power, they have fusion power, they have a kind of internet. Oh, it's very limited because the government is not big on free information, as you may guess. And so they have the trappings of a sophisticated society. They're much better at all these things than we are, but it's not what their society is about. And most people, the bottom 90% of them, have little to no contact with any of that and are living pretty much at a level except for medical care of like the 18th century. Oh, it sounds like it looks like a it looks like romantic. It looks like historical romance, but underneath the surface, it is science fiction.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I know everybody listening is gonna want to pick up all the books and read. Absolutely. Now, Tara, your story in fireworks and floristation is Corona Lights, uh set in the Starship Valkyrie world. Um maybe you can tell us a little bit about your world first. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Oh boy. Yeah, uh Starship Valkyrie is much more like Star Trek. Uh, you know, it is a you know, it's a it's a game universe first. And most of the action in Starship Valkyrie takes place in the 2150s during the Presorian War, Liberator War, and Z Ward periods, because we're always telling the sort of the war stories of that time. So, you know, when I when I'm referring to those things in the stories, those that's the main period that most of the players are are familiar with, most of the community. Uh it's you know, it's not it's not quite near future, but it's not super far future either. It's it's the 2150s, 2140s. Uh it's basically after a huge disaster, just like Parish's world. Uh essentially in the late uh late 21st century, where uh there's a huge climate crisis and a bunch of wars, fights over water, fights over land. And the Setians, basically a species of of psychic humanoids who have been watching humanity for a long time, break their own rules and intervene and save humanity and elevate humanity by giving them technology. And it's difficult because at first humanity is like, oh my god, aliens, you know. Um uh and it you know creates a lot of conflict and stuff. And what they build are like what called the indoc centers, and that's referenced a lot. Endoc is short for indoctrination. This is reteaching humanity how to not destroy themselves, essentially. And so what we're looking at is an is an altered humanity, is a humanity that's been altered by Setians, to some degree been made a client species by the Setians, and are are still sort of better at making war and more aggressive than the Setians who are uh and kind of do their dirty work for them. Uh like uh the Earth Republic Star Navy is to some degree enabled by the Setians in order to protect them. Uh, and that's where we're at in the 2150s of the story. You know, like humanity has started to expand beyond the republic sector of space. Um, people can get around using hyperspace, which is uh, you know, an alternative dimension. So there's portal routes essentially through hyperspace that have been there for a very long time because there is like a cyclical cycle, uh there's like a cyclical nature to the uh to the galaxy where there have been periods of a civilization, large galactic civilization, periods of war, and periods of dark ages. So there these portal routes, which have been established before, are still there and they're connecting the various planets with that are habitable and have sapient species on them. Uh and those portal roots, humanity has been discovering and finding. And on the other side of a large sector of space that is just horrific and full of like warlike nanites and hyperspace storms, is the Skeletra Federation, which is 20 species who have begun to gang together for a few hundred years and have started to create a galactic civilization. Uh in Corlana Lights, uh, we're at a consulate at Corlana, which is the first system inside of the Skeletra Federation. That consulate is the human consulate, basically the Earth Republic consulate with both Setians and humans who are reaching out to the Skeletrade Federation. Our main character is an attache of that consulate named Andromeda Cordova or Andre. And the man that she is interested in is an Amnesoline contractor. Amnesoline are another humanoid species from the other side of the Skilo Trade Federation. And there's some knowledge about them. The Odyssey, which is a player ship, has engaged with them, and this amnesiline called The Lance was a security contractor aboard the Odyssey. It's kind of an Easter egg for the community that we get this character who is an NPC on Odyssey come in and get to be our main male character here and get his own romance. And uh in this story, essentially, even though we don't know his name, he and Andromeda are asked to pretend to be affianced. So we have like a fake engagement story going on in order to deal with like a political situation and try to get advantage for the Earth Republic Star Navy in the form of a fusion beam. That's all very complicated.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

I just realized one of those I was looking at your I was looking at your tropes, uh Alien Hero, fake engagement, friends to lovers. Yeah, but then you threw in a couple content warnings uh alien genitals and creepy celebrity. And I'm trying to decide how creepy celebrity is a content warning, but uh both of us scratch my head. Um, so yeah, how does that fit into this story?

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Well, I I like to say to Paris that I'm in my lean-in era, and my first two stories in our anthologies were the Crimson series, and you know, the first one's in Hawaii, like it's science fiction because it's science fiction, but it's not in space. There's no there's no like galactic warfare, they're both humans, and I in Crimson Bride, I leaned in a little more where we're on a space station, we've got a terrorist and stuff like that, and that was all very fun. But you know, when I came in to do this one, I was like, you know, I need to do something a little more sci-fi. The people hunger for full-on sci-fi. I'm gonna do an alien hero. Um, and one thing that we've been talking about a lot in when we deal with the ski low trade federation is uh like a lot of, even though we have humanoids here, uh, there's still a lot of difference, a lot of bodily difference, and that creates like cultural friction points within the STF. The Amnesaline are looked down upon by the Skelo, by the Kimbelites, by a lot of the humanoid species in the STF for because they are savage, they're sort of used just like humans are by the Setians, as this sort of like more warlike species, more aggressive species who provides security to the Skelow Trade Federation in the form of the Amnesaline Mercenary Guild, which kind of puts them in conflict with the Earth Republic Star Navy who protect uh the Skila Trade Federation during the Pyramid War. And it's like, hey, that's our job, but they weren't doing it very well, so you know, the Odyssey had to step in. Pyramids are hard to fight, you know, it it required everybody. But um the the point of that was that like I also thought about like what are the other reasons why the Amnesal line might be looked down upon? And some of it is like they're kind of looked down upon because they're a bigger species, like they're like they're just kind of physically larger, you know, there's a range of different humanoid species, some are smaller, some are Bigger and they have slightly strange genitalia, like in a way that makes ski lao kind of be like, oh, oh my God, I don't want to deal with that. Not because like their genitalia is very huge, but it is just odd. It's a little, it does, it does strange things, you know? Um, and that makes the ski lao not want to deal with them. And I didn't want to deal with that in a like a super erotica type way, but more in a cultural way, of like uh Drembahat, who is the the this the cumbalite celebrity that they're trying to get the fusion beam from, is talking to Andromeda and acting like, you know, these two are together because that's what they've told him, and saying, like, how can you be with an amnesile line? Like, aren't they kind of mm? And you know, and she's like, What do you mean? And it's it's humiliating to poor Lance, who is having basically like his most private, private disgust in this like rather disgusted way in front of Andromeda, who actually he does like to humiliate him. And so I use that as like a cultural and an emotional touch point instead of just erotica. Something I wanted to do to talk about the differences and cultural friction points in the STF instead of just being like, ooh, alien genitalia. Yeah, not just titillating, but yeah, it's Drembaha is titillated by it, and I wanted the audience to actually be horrified for Lance in that moment and feel bad for him. Like, what would it feel like to have genitalia it in the STF or in a in a cultural context that other people look down upon?

unknown 45:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

And it works too. It definitely works.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Yeah. It's in some way, I mean, yeah, I I'm assuming if he's clothed and everything, it it's just an assumption made by the type of being he is. Whereas I think of women or breasts, we're judged all you know, hiding it. They're big, they're small, they're whatever, and people often make comments about that. So it's interesting to sort of flip that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

And yeah, I mean, she's being sexually harassed, right? But like that, he's the real thing here is that Lance is being just humiliated and objectified. And I, you know, it becomes a fight between Lance and Andromeda later on that they then have to overcome and realize that they actually do like each other. And I I really enjoyed writing that, actually. It was really nice. And and you know, because there's a lot of talk in science fiction romance and about shifter romance and paranormal romance and omega verse and all this stuff, like just like the titillation around like these different kinds of genitalia and things like that. And I was like, how would it feel really to be like that, to have different like a difference of genitalia that people might look down upon? And what would it look like in a conversation? I really wanted to explore that.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Yeah. Uh Parish, uh you your stories and Terra's are in some ways similar in terms of the sci-fi and everything. I wonder if you have any questions for her about what she's writing.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Well, I kind of do. I mean, I am since this is what your material is written from, Sarah Terra is you have to like you're you're you're coming from a like a game play situation. It's everything it has to be consistent internally to that. How how do you maintain your your world building situation? Because I I'm like like, well, it's kind of fluid, I like it's kind of evolves, I expand, it develops, but you've got to have more of a surely more of a top-down kind of situation. This is what it is and this is what it is not.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

Yeah, there's a lot of ways that we do that. Uh so we're there's a team, uh actually, it's a team aspect to this. You've been in the documents and you've seen my beta readers in there. One of the things that Rob does, he's our mechanics lead, and he's he actually makes sure everything is rule compatible. So if I have a combat scene, that combat scene is rule compatible. If there's bridge combat, that bridge combat is rule compatible. And Rob comes in and does that. It's like, well, you know, you know, system bypass doesn't actually do this, Tara. And I'm like, oh my God. So it helps that I have been the lore master of Starship Valkyrie since 2015. I built the wiki, and I also helps that I have the beta readers and Rob, who has that kind of memory for adjudications and and like uh basically like uh where we've come down on and rule. I've had talked to Christian a lot about um who was the original creator of the of the system, about you know, things in the universe that he that he thinks are real and you know try to make all that stuff consistent. The wiki helps. I have to I actually find myself going to the wiki and checking what we've written about a thing to make sure it's consistent. Uh and it's really just making sure that I hold myself accountable to the players and um to stuff I've written before going back through the archive and having Rob check everything as well. Um that's why I have the beta readers look at absolutely everything before it goes out because I don't want something to be inconsistent, whether it's timeline or um inconsistent with somebody's character or something that's been established in a game, something that's been established in another piece of writing, something that Christian established. Occasionally we do have to change something. Um there were a few things that were just inconsistent when they originally um set down, and we have had to talk to the players about like, hey, this ship was destroyed twice, so we've had to replace it. There's this joke in Valkyrie about the Chupacabra, which did not exist, but we've had to basically say, like, well, the omacado was destroyed twice. So the second time it was destroyed was actually the Chupacabra, which is really upsetting people who were at that game because they remember saving the omacado, but I can we can't destroy it twice, and it didn't get rebuilt because ships do not get rebuilt um necessarily that quickly. So it we've established that there was the ERS Chupacabra, choop choop. But it is it's always a point of friction whenever we have to do that. So I keep it as limited as possible.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

It's it's science fiction and fantasy require you to build worlds with rules that you have to stay consistent with, right? Because the readers for sure will remember they'll call you out if you forget, which again goes back to when we're talking about it's all a bunch of frou-fruit. And I'm like, look at all that has gone into this, right? Well, fru-fru or anti-intellectual, whatever you want to call it, but look what has got like it is so elaborate. I do not know how y'all keep track of it. I mean, you just said how you do, you have people who come in behind you to make sure, you know. I mostly write contemporary romance. The rules are the rules, everybody knows them, right? I don't have to explain gravity, right? I, you know, everybody knows cars and how they work. I'm not having to describe that stuff. And, you know, I'm you know, readers enjoy it for the fantastical and the excitement and the venture. Wonder how much they really recognize what has to go on behind the scenes to make sure it all works because you mess it up, somebody's gonna notice and you're gonna have two ships, you're gonna have one ship you destroyed twice.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Yes, yes. I always got mad at Christian about that. It's like, oh my god, you destroyed the avocado twice. Are you kidding me? Yeah, it's I think romance, not romance, I'm so sorry, uh, science fiction and fantasy readers do understand this stuff. I learned how to do this from Jim Butcher. I remember going and talking to him about this stuff. Like, how do you keep this stuff consistent? It was the same thing. He had Priscilla, who's a friend of mine, uh keep and maintain the wiki, and he would go and he would check his own wiki because she was so good at maintaining continuity and noting everything that he had done. And he was like, This is more consistent than my own notes. Sometimes you just need a second person, and I was the second person for Christian, you know, keeping track of the lore, and now I'm the main writer, but I still have Rob there and I enjoy the community aspect of it a lot. Science fiction and fantasy often operate in community, and it's one of the things about science fiction I love more than anything is the community aspect.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Yeah, maybe I need to do a wiki for Eva. I highly recommend it. Because I'm frequently like, I don't know if this will work, but we're good, we're doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Inviting other people to contribute to it is a nice way to build community. That happened in the early days of the Dresden Files.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, I love how both of you are so passionate about Tender and Tempting Tales, and you're always willing to submit one of your most excellent stories to us. But I know you both do other stuff. Uh, so I want to ask you both maybe what you're working on outside of Tender and Tempting Tales, and maybe Erna, Parrish. You can work what you're working on right now.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Oh, well, I'm working on a lot of different things. But I think what is one of the more interesting things I'm working on right now is kind of a spin-off of another novel that I haven't edited and gotten out yet. But speaking of clones, they do have there is, I've exaggerated when I say there's no male clones. There are. There's a subset of clones who are used for heavy labor in remote places where they have no contact with anybody else. And their main attribute is that they're very large, like, you know, about seven to eight feet tall. They are very blue, and they are not regarded as being very intelligent or anything, but in fact, they are far more intelligent than people give the credit for. And one of them, at the end of a novel I just finished called The Thessaly Affair, which I hope to have out maybe by the beginning of next year, uh, he gets away from a mine near the North Pole. And he gets down into terraformed country. And now he has encountered an extremely wealthy and very bored 40-something odd-year-old woman who is going to have all kinds of problems dealing with this strange and very, in several different ways, large individual. That's what I'm up to. He's blue.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

It's the next Ice Planet Barbarians. Go read it, go read it now. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

It's on the Substack. I am like uh uh putting it out of one to two chapters a week, depending on how the days fall. And uh it's it's coming along, and I'm it's going to involve all kinds of things. There's gonna be a topless lady sword fight, there's gonna be a giant blue man, there's there's there's there's everything. It's something for almost anybody who is interested in off-the-wall things like that.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

I have to tell our listeners that Tara is doing a little dance in the background because she's been reading this and loves it. She's been doing a little dance as as Paris has been talking here. So, Tara, what are you working on?

SPEAKER_02 54:32

Before I get into that, I have to tell everyone that I have the world's only one and only, because Parrish's daughter doesn't want this shirt for some reason. The only Rados t-shirt in existence. And it is the best.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

It rocks.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

This picture on your substatement to take a look at him.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

Um somewhere. I will have to find it.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

We'll have to find it. So I know listeners are like, I gotta see this guy.

unknown 55:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

What am I working on? A million things. I'm working on I'm always working on a million things. Uh, we're working on a on a game for a strat con for one thing. But in the background, I'm also working on a novel called Vox Protocol, which is my first just sci-fi romance novel. You know, it's not anything else, you know, it's it's a it's a straight up sci-fi romance novel. It features Lance and Andrew from Corlana Lights. It is more of their love story. I'm going to start serializing it to Substack as a way of keeping myself accountable and just finishing it, trying not to make it longer than 80,000 words. You know, it's an exercise in like, can I do something approximately normal? Which is it's still sci-fi romance, so it's not normal.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Science fiction, you you know, if science fiction and fantasy are allowed moral words, right? Because there's just so much you have to include.

SPEAKER_02 55:51

Yes, I will I will forgive myself 120,000 words. I just want you to understand that the serialized thing that I'm publishing called What Remains is a million words on my computer. A million, a million, one million words. One million words, one million words, and I am not sorry. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Yeah, how big would that be if you printed it?

SPEAKER_02 56:19

I don't know. So many I have had to divide it. It's six documents because if you try to put more than 50,000 words into a single word document, it chugs like a cottage cheese milkshake. So I've had to divide it into multiple documents in order to keep to be able to access this document without it just chugging on me. Oh, that's funny.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

Uh, we've talked a bit on the show about romance and romantic, how it's sort of poo-pooed, looked down on, not important, kind of a bunch of fluffing stuff. We cannot change reader taste, right? Like anybody who doesn't want to read it ain't gonna read it. But I wonder what you might say to readers to maybe help them understand or appreciate, maybe even try out and enjoy romantic or romantic sci-fi or oh well, I would say that you should like you know, open your mind.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

You say that it's like bluff, or it's like, well, we'll maybe it's not Duskate or something like that, right? But it will allow you to have a viewpoint on so someone else thinks the human condition is that you can go through quickly and easily. It's like I'm very, there's a lot going on in fairy tales, obviously, that is under the surface, but it's a bit like that. It just accepts it on its own merits. Don't try to put it into something else, just have fun with it, you know? It's you're you're you're kind of shipping all these weird characters together, right? You know, it's like just let them be, let them have their fun and enjoy it with them.

SPEAKER_02 58:01

My dear sister, Michelle, who I'm calling out on this podcast, hates fantasy and she hates sci-fi. My my own darling older sister, she hates this stuff. She still buys our anthologies to support me, but she cannot stand my stuff. And it's not for lack of love, it's not for lack of trying. She doesn't like anything that's not realistic, you know. She doesn't like being in a world that doesn't feel realistic. She knows it's a lot of work, she doesn't poo-poo it at all. She just doesn't like it. And it's led me to understand really deeply that people do have different attitudes when they read. And it's it's not for lack of trying. Here's what I will say if you are gonna be one of those people who is going to poo-poo science fiction or romance or fame romantic, pick up an anthology and read one of a sh one of the short stories in that genre so you at least know what it is before you poo-poo it and understand how different these things are from each other. That is all I ask, right? If you don't like anything unrealistic, like my sister Michelle, and you just want to say that, that's totally fine. What I don't like is all of this stuff being lumped into the same category. Romancy, science fiction romance are not alike, they are not the same thing. We are not the same as paranormal romance, we're not the same as shifter romance, we're not the same as Omega Verse, and none of these things are the same thing, and none of these things are monster erotica, none of these things are that. It it doesn't mean that I hate monster erotica. I love monster erotica, I appreciate and respect the hell out of it, but they are not the same thing. Reducing us all to the same category does not make you sound smart. It just and and poo-pooing those things does not make you sound smart, it just makes you sound closed-minded. So I beg you to at least pick up an anthology or zine and know what it is before you decide you don't like it or that it is all the same. That way you can be like, here are the reasons I don't like it, and that's fine. I I appreciate respect the hell out of that. I just want you to know what it is before you walk away from it.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

Yeah. And I think I'd also be careful of judging it on one read or something, right? Because not even within the genre, not all authors write the same or tell their stories the same. And whatever anybody reads, whatever they're reading, whether it's literary fiction, um crime fiction, if you look at the vast crime fiction, right? Some people they just want to read cozy's, they don't want to read noir, right? So you wouldn't judge crime fiction on noir.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:33

You know, uh so even within romance and romantic, it even that's not all the same. And and reading one popular book doesn't make you an expert in in how all the other books. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

Not all romantic is acatar. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

And not all sci-fi romance is is ice plated. I did enjoy the Grishaverse. Um now romantic sci-fi hasn't yet found the same popularity as romantic, but it just really feels like it could. Like it feels like it has all the elements that make romanticy really exciting. And I'm wondering if how you think sci-fi romance might attract romantic people. Or even romance in general, romance reading in general. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

I don't know. It it's it's just kind of a zeitgeist thing. I don't know that you can plan for that sort of a thing. Uh, I think that romanticy is very popular right now as separate from cozy, but there's a kind of cozy to it. There's kind of an escapist kind of a pleasurable environment you like to be in. And I think that that is what drags people to that. I think in a period of a cultural period where people are more optimistic about things, I think sci-fi romance would be more popular because that'd be kind of like there'd be it's a kind of a going forward. Romancy to a degree is kind of like a a step out to the side, away or retreat back into a more familiar environment. Sci-fi is more projecting forwards. And uh we if we've gone through like dystopian, you know, YA being popular. I I don't understand that it is popular now. I think it's merged into other things, but we had there's a period where people like really fretting about things before they start like you know feeling somewhat differently. So it's just a period kind of thing. I think, you know, in 10 or 15 years, we'll be absolutely in a different place. And it wouldn't surprise me if if sci-fi romance was not more popular just because of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:42

Yeah, I agree with Parrish. I I think one thing about sci-fi and sci-fi romance is that a science fiction world is is challenging and not just, I mean, uh fantasy, all speculative fiction is challenging in certain ways, but so the thing about sci-fi is that it it's talking about the way technology and advances in science and large changes in environment affect humanity and and culture, right? Like it's very interested in those questions. Interested in the questions of like what technologies we should take on and which ones we should leave aside, what we should develop, what will happen to humanity when we do, right? And I think that we're kind of living in a moment like that. You know, I think that's what a I mean, we're living in a sci-fi moment right now. And I don't always know that people want to then go to sci-fi and get more of that challenge when they're living in a sci-fi moment, which is why I think romanticy is popular right now. Like I think people are in worlds when they're reading romantic that doesn't have these kinds of technological challenges where where it's easier to figure out what truth is, like base truth is is easier to find. And I do think that's a thing that people need right now. Whereas the challenge of sci-fi might not like uh going into a world that's like challenging these kinds of questions might not always be appealing. And I think that there will be a moment where that kind of retrospective will be welcome and more people will want to read it. I do think a lot of people who enjoy romantic will enjoy sci-fi romance because I think that they will enjoy speculative fiction more generally. So, like the popularity of romantic, I definitely see it as an optimistic thing, like a reason why to I should hope that people will like sci-fi romance, but there are really important differences, and I think it's important to acknowledge that people might not want to go into that kind of world. Parish is writing about the implications of an AI destroyed future. I'm writing about the implications of Earth almost being destroyed by climate change. It's challenging stuff, you know. Parish is writing about a world that's full of clones where like a hierarchy has retaken people and people functionally humanity has bonded itself back to the Stone Age. I'm writing about a world where you know, like everything is is highly socialist and controlled, and people do not have a lot of a lot of freedom, and there's like a lot of xeno xenophobic feelings about aliens. That might not be very escapist for people.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:52

I get it. Still, they gotta try it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Yeah, yes, they must try it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

Ultimately, romance is about two beings coming together, right? Yes. Uh, I mean, and that's that's sort of the glue that through all of it. Whether you're reading a historical romance, whether you're reading a sci-fi romance, whether you're reading contemporary mafia, whatever, whatever it is, that's always sort of the underlying thing is love. Two people coming together, making a commitment. Yeah. So that's what cares about that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

We've got challenging worlds, challenging worlds, but we have people who are finding happiness together despite those challenging worlds, right? And if that's a thing that gives you hope because you live in a challenging world and you want to find your people and find love with them and you want something like that, we both write that. Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:43

Well, let's uh let's go on to recommended reading. And since we're talking a lot about romantic and science fiction, do you have any that you might recommend? Yeah, you know, it might be something somebody who's never read it, that might be a good intro, or just one you loved. And Just would like to give it some love.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

I bet you we could give each other's rec because we know them by heart.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

Well, I'll I'll go ahead and give mine. Um it's uh I will never not take the opportunity to do a push out Tanneth Lee and a heroine of the world. This is a book that I like so much that I will buy copies and send them to people because it is just that good. It is a it I would say if it were written now, people would categorize it as romanticy. It was it is set in a world that is kind of like 18th century Europe, except not. It's and there's nothing really fantastic or science fiction or magical that happens exactly, although maybe uh in the background. But it's very definitely a romance, and this young woman goes through hell getting halfway across the world to the man that she loves, whose life she saved without him knowing it. And it's just a good book written about 1992 or something like that. Fantastic book. I highly recommend it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

Yay! He's reading it in French, folks. That's how much he loves this book. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

Oh, I wouldn't got a French. I already I could get a Russian copy of it, but I I would have to like learn Cyrillic, so I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:28

I give you my cheater's guide to Cyrillic if you know the Greek alphabet. Uh mine is I will never not recommend the first book of the Vokosican saga Shards of Honor by Lewis McMaster Bajolt. Uh, this is why I say Parish and I could give each other's recommendations at this point. But yes, I I will firmly stand by Shards of Honor as a science fiction romance. Probably the first one I ever read uh in the subgenre. Uh you know, it's also it's a rollicking adventure. It's Cordelia Naismith, who is uh, you know, she's an explorer uh for her colony of humans on this really interesting, strange planet uh that everything is like a hexapod, everything is has like six elements to it, and it's like very, very poisonous. This planet, like it does not want humans there. Everything is poisonous, everything's coming from them. There's like floating jellyfish in the air. It's really, really interesting. Like a beautiful place that is just extremely poisonous and dangerous, like Australia, but on steroids. Uh and she meets a man from another another human planet that's been isolated called Barriar. His name is Errol Verkosigan. And after things happen to members of her crew, they get into fights. She and Errol have to travel through this poisonous wasteland to get to a station in order to like call their their respective people. And as they travel together, they come to respect each other. It is like the base in my mind upon which I based Winter Sting. It's kind of like that plot, that the very basic outline of that plot was what I base Winter Sting on. You know, like a really dangerous place, and two like people who are alien to each other, who have very different cultures, who are basically like glommed together to try to find safety. It's really, really good. I highly recommend it. They are like not the focus of the rest of the Vokosigan saga, except the follow-up book Barriar, which is also has a lot of romantic elements and is really interesting. Um, but that book itself is very much a science fiction romance. And if you want to know what this genre is all about, you want to see sort of its like foundations, I would say go pick that one up. Also, it's just good. It's really, really good. It's a good sci-fi as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

I I suppose I'm supposed to recommend something now, but I haven't read a whole lot of.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:40

If you're in new romantic, you want to recommend it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:42

Not a whole lot. I read um Cordathon and Roses, it was good. I wasn't into the romance part, like I just didn't feel it with them, which turns out good because I guess she goes to the next guy in the next book. But the but the book itself I enjoyed. I, you know, I liked the take on the beauty of the beast. I so I enjoyed it for that, not necessarily the romance part. I liked Six of Crows a lot, still, though not really highly romantic. Um, even though there are characters who fall in love in there. Um, and then I just can't remember anything else I read. Crediting Jenna, jumping in here real quick, because after we finished this, I did think of a series that could possibly fit into what we're talking about today, and that is the In-Death series by J.D. Robb, who is probably more famously known as Nora Roberts. The J.D. Robb books are basically police procedural books. Each book has a crime that Lieutenant Eve Dallas has to solve. The romance has to do with Rourke, the billionaire, who she ends up having to investigate a little bit. In the first book, Naked in Death. There are now close to 60 books. There might be even be over 60 books. I know there's over 50 books. Uh, and throughout them, her relationship with Rourke grows. I'm a big fan of sleuthing couples, so it's one reason I love this series. The series first came out in the 90s and it's set, I want to say, around 2050, 2048, 2050, something like that. So at that time it was enough in the future to feel like the future. Now in 2026, it's not that so far ahead. At the same time, the books do have some future elements in terms of technology, in terms of what has changed in the world culturally and socially, things like that. But it is not so different that it feels different. That in a lot of ways the world still feels the same. These take place in New York. And so while there's some technology, some cultural social differences, it's still a world that you would recognize, and yet at the same time, there are some differences uh that do make it slightly different. That is probably the closest thing I have to offer in terms of reading something that would be close to uh a sci-fi romance. And this one, of course, has mysteries.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:13

The big thing I love about romanticity is getting people used to reading longer books. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

Yeah, yeah. And of course, here in Tendertip Details, we're sort of pushing the opposite in terms of being able to read a story in a sitting and getting all the stuff you want from a romance. Got the the meet cute, or at least the the first time on page, they're together. You know, we've got the story arc of uh there's an attraction, but there's stuff going on that's getting in the way. And finally they they work through it, they get to the end, uh, and we have a happily ever after with us. There's always usually a little spicy, spicy bit in there, too. So if you like your romance with a little bit of steam, and all our stories are 10,000 words or less in the anthology, so they certainly can be read in a sitting while you're waiting at the doctor's office or waiting for your kids to get out of whatever activities they're in or whatever. So uh that's why I want to encourage y'all who love your romantic to consider getting an anthology that might have a romanticy or sci-fi in it and read a short. It can't be, it's not easy to do. Uh I, you know, I highly commend the both of you being able to put something with all the the extra world-building elements into uh a story that somebody can read in a sitting. I think that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:41

I'm just grateful you have a glossary. Paris gets a map, I get a glossary. That's right. We're we're grateful that you don't just poo-poo us and be like, ew, sci-fi road.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:55

Woo!

SPEAKER_01 1:13:57

I I haven't had a new. I've had a hmm. Let's look at that, let's look at that a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:06

I don't I don't mind, I don't mind winding it back a little bit. That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

So now, Tara, I you know, you're usually my co-host on this. I don't know if you want to sign us off today.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

No, we are Tender and Tempting Tales. We've got an open call right now that's Starlit and Spellbound. We would look stories from you under 10,000 words that have an otherworldly element and fall vibes. If you're a romance author, please go to Substack. That's Tender and Tempting Tales at Substack. Take a look at our Four Writers page and take a look at our guidelines. Make sure you're following those. A lot of the people who don't get into the anthologies and zines did not follow the guidelines. So just make sure you're looking at those. We are also on Instagram. You can follow us, see all the excitement that we've got going right now about fireworks and flirtation, which is coming out on the 18th. Me and Parrish are in it. Jenna is in it with a wonderful novelette. We've got eight experienced and new romance authors. You can read all sorts of different kinds of romance there. We've got a pirate romance, we've got a historical romance from Annie Army Q, and we've got paranormal romance from Marissa Marinello, we've got everything contemporary, historical, pirate, science fiction, everything you might want, except the romanticy in that one. And if you are interested in learning more about romanticy and you want to see what it's all about, we have a romanticy zine coming out in July. It's gonna have four romanticy stories in it, trying to give you a sense of the breadth of the genre. And if you don't like it, after that, you have done your due diligence. But you might find you like it if you uh if you enjoy that zine. So keep an eye out for that. Uh follow us on Amazon. We've got uh three anthologies out in one zine. Great diversity and variety of stories. Uh, and we hope to see you uh following us on the podcast as well. You can follow us here and on Buds Buzz Sprout. Jenna.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:41

I want to thank both of you for taking time today to chat about your stories. And I always learn a lot, though, because uh again, you're you're writing outside of what I write. So it's always fun for me to hear your process and hear how you get your ideas and all that kind of stuff. It's very exciting. And to everybody who's listening, thank you for joining us and listening to us talk about bookish drama. If you have thoughts about it, want to share your two cents, we'd like to hear it as well. And you can leave comments on Substack where the podcast is posted or on any of the other podcast platforms that allow for comments. And until next time, I want to wish you peace, love, and happily ever after.